Fenton, Terry, Gordon, etc.: Sorry, I was out of the loop for a couple days. Well, from what's been said since, I guess I mistook a bit of ribbing (no pun intended). Probably serves me right for butting in. But Terry, you've probably had this experience too -- your curiosity is aroused by a topic on the list, and you turn eagerly to read a post on the topic, but the post seems more attitude or inside-joke than info. It's especially frustrating (when I'm in my greedy data-sponging mode, anyway) when it comes from somebody whose two cents on the idea would probably be pretty informative if they wanted to throw them in! Ron Overs has just reported helping somebody who is trying out stiffening a board with supplementary ribs rather than replacing it. Likewise, adding laminates, to increase rib height and stiffness and/or set downbearing, seems like a valid topic, not automatically a Sanford & Son duct tape thing. Gordon said, "It's kind of neat to think of an old, shot CC board suddenly becoming a rib-crowned board," and I think that sounds like an interesting experiment too, at least to try. Say for a limited-budget piano, that already has good hammers and repinned action or whatever, whose tone or sustain seems to indicate a board that's a bit tired or off. Or maybe there's a musician who's basically fond of the sound of their old piano and says 'let's see what we can do with the old board before we do something that might totally change its personality.' Or maybe somebody wants to try that now, and if it disappoints, save for a new board later. Or, hey, maybe it's even something to have in your bag of tricks for a new-ish compression crowned board! But, truly, what do I know; I'm just curious to find out. Terry you said "The quality old upright, IMHO, simply does not need $500 worth of band-aids, it needs $20K of remanufacturing." To me it depends on what need is being met. Isn't what the piano needs set by the musician or school, or casual player, or student, which includes his real-life parameters such as budget and what'll be rewarding to him -- and also by the technician/craftsman, including what kind of thing he gets enough profit or satisfaction from getting involved in? If I was one of your customers with a limited budget (which I would be!), I think I'd have a hard time going along with "a (cough-choke) "nice" 20-year-old Kimball console for $500 or $600," and my reluctance would be based partly on my limited experience with a couple very old pianos vs. newer (probably better than Kimball) pianos in good condition. I'm somewhere in the middle ground between wanting to make do with just a decent serviceable piano, and being able to go for the $20,000 rebuild, so neither of your options is good for me. And I'd probably have a hard time convincing you to get involved in limited budget experiments on an old piano that I thought I overall preferred musically to the Kimball. But that's just us two individuals. But Terry, I actually think I can empathize. Basically, you're tired of working on beaters where there's no budget to get the kind of results that satisfy and nourish your sense of accomplishment and esthetics, and you really get a lot of satisfaction out of the craft of building and installing new boards and of approaching ever closer in your work to the platonic ideal of Piano, or to the outer limits of sensual possibility. No irony or tongue-in-cheek meant. I think maybe we all have trouble switching our viewpoint to evaluate or appreciate something in its actual context. An artistic idealism or whatever you want to call it is maybe sometimes a little temperamental (crabby) <G>, but can also help drive progress and I'd guess that those with that idealism are sometimes the ones who come to be able to best meet the artistic needs of certain customers. Fenton, by 'tautology' I just meant that, of course, pretty much nobody would be interested when you put it that way! Okay, now I'll butt out and just listen & learn. Best regards, Trent -----Original Message----- From: Terry [mailto:terry@farrellpiano.com] Sent: Wed 3/16/2005 7:16 AM To: Pianotech Cc: Subject: Re: Increasing Crown Oh I've got pretty thick skin. I actually saved that post - I felt like maybe it was a statement that I've finally arrived! I had never been accused of that before! I've never thought anything is below me, I still work on spinets - but there are definitely things that I am finding less satisfying (i.e. spinets and band-aiding-to-death old worn-out uprights). Regarding old upright, my thoughts are really less about patching up a soundboard and more about the general condition of the entire beast. What good is it going to do to improve a soundboard on one of these great-a-hundred-years-ago uprights when the hammers are nubs and don't all hit the right strings, all the action centers are loose, the bridge is cracked, the hammer butts are worn through, the pinblock is shot, the keys are all wiggley, action parts fly off while tuning, strings don't render worth a hoot, it's plagued with false beats, etc. The soundboard is the least of that piano's problems. Who cares if it has lost its crown? Replacing keytops and rebushing keys would likely do more to improve most old uprights than farting around with the soundboard - but even then, you still have all the other things. Sorry to say, but I often find myself recommending to old upright owners that they would be much better off finding a (cough-choke) "nice" 20-year-old Kimball console for $500 or $600 than trying to patch up the old upright. The quality old upright, IMHO, simply does not need $500 worth of band-aids, it needs $20K of remanufacturing. And as far as "I think Terry's statement was informative of his position on the subject, how else to express it?" goes - that cuts to the heart of the matter - how else to express it? I really think folks need to lighten up a bit. Folks state opinions on this list. They share the approach they take to address various situations. It doesn't mean they are saying that any other approach is bad. We just had a thread about action center cloth - some like the Renner pre-glued stuff - someone posted that the plain cloth works well. Is that guy stupid because he doesn't use the same cloth as me? I don't think so. Do I think it is ridiculous to take the time to put two dabs of glue on the cloth for each flange? Well, actually I do think it's ridiculous - but that's just me - at the same time, I also know that guy may even do it that way and still be faster than me and his bushings are great. Nothing wrong with ten techs doing something ten different ways. I guess that's what I'm trying to say here - when you read someone's statement about how they do something or what they would do or not do, just realize that most of the time that's all they are saying - a statement about what they do - they are not (usually) saying that you shouldn't do it some other way! As far as participating on this list goes - I'll have to get a whole lot smarter than I am now to ever get offended. When someone suggests that something I said was stupid or wrong or bad, I figure they are probably right (.....not!). So how could I get upset? I think I can understand how someone with a lot of knowledge and experience (obviously, not me) can get frustrated with people constantly suggesting that their whole approach to piano work is baseless. As one researches and experiments and observes over many years, they really can't avoid forming some pretty firm opinions on how things work and what works and what doesn't. And sure, they will tend to state maybe somewhat forcefully what their opinions are (and maybe even state it as fact - so what? - it is to them - hey, some people even make the bold statement that the theory of evolution is a fact!). But why some find the need to challenge these opinions, I don't know. If a response is to better understand the subject matter, that is one thing, but it seems it is sometimes to simply tell the other person they are wrong - and such an approach can only end up being divisive and argumentative. Enough gibberish for now. Terry Farrell > I'm watching this thread with interest because of egos not subject. Thump, > go for it! Let us know, I remember John Block, met him in Denver, with his > valve springs. > Trent, "tautology" come on! I think Terry's statement was informative of his > position on the subject, how else to express it? > Terry, Please stay on this list. > I'll shutup now. > Respectfully to All, > Fenton Murray, RPT > www.MurraysPianoTuning.com <http://www.MurraysPianoTuning.com> > > > Thanks Terry, I certainly don't mind your considering > > this idea "beneath you........SNIP ****** IMPORTANT NOTICE ****** This e-mail, and any attachments hereto, is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail, and any attachments hereto, is strictly prohibited. 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