This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment Thank you. Lots of places, some of which I will be passing near. Other info great too. With gear like that, you obviously do more than a few sets per year? John M. Ross Windsor, Nova Scotia, Canada jrpiano@win.eastlink.ca ----- Original Message -----=20 From: MICHAEL MORVAN=20 To: Pianotech=20 Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 2:50 PM Subject: Re: buffing keytops John, Canton flannel buffs are available from: Woodcraft 1-800-225-1153, = Tool Crib 1-800-635-5140, Rockler 1-800-279-4441, Eagle America = 1-800-872-2511, The Garrett Wade Tool Co. 1-800-221-2942 and many = hardware stores. Be sure not to get a sewn wheel, get a loose sewn (1 or = 2 stitches) and a loose section (1 stitch at the arbor) Spiral sewn and = sisal buffs are much to aggressive for keys but good for rough cutting = metals. When ordering compound, get a buffing compound not a cutting = compound, and I've found that the closer the color to the object your = buffing the better. If your interested in knowing, I use 1hp Baldor = buffing machines @1750 rpm with 10 inch dia. wheels. Separate machines = for plastic, ivory, ebony and metals. Rake your wheels occasionally to = keep them clean. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Ross=20 To: Pianotech=20 Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 1:16 PM Subject: Re: buffing keytops Thank you Michael. Where are those Canton flannel buffers available from? John M. Ross Windsor, Nova Scotia, Canada jrpiano@win.eastlink.ca ----- Original Message -----=20 From: MICHAEL MORVAN=20 To: Pianotech=20 Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 1:50 PM Subject: buffing keytops John, I have found buffing to be more of an art than a science. When = your buffing ivory and bone you are doing two things, one is smoothing = the surface and removing fine scratches, the other is sealing the pores. = When your buffing plastic you are smoothing and removing fine scratches = and not necessarily sealing it because plastic is not porous. I have = found that a sewn canton flannel buff followed by an loose canton = flannel buff works well for me. Take into consideration that when you = are buffing you are simply putting the icing on the cake. What do I = mean? Buffing is to shine and seal (in the case of ivory and bone.) The = surface preparation should already be done. Buffing removes fine = scratches well, and will leave a perfectly flat surface. If one relies = on buffing to remove deep pits and scratches, this is where problems = arise. The surface will not be perfectly flat, and heat will be = generated. Heat will crack and burn ivory and bone, heat will melt and = deform plastic. The trick is surface preparation, keep the key moving, = and apply the proper pressure. Compound or rouge plays a role also. = Compound can contain abrasives, you want to be sure that you are using a = buffing compound and not a cutting compound. A cutting compound will = leave as many scratches and lines in the top as you are trying to = remove. I look at buffing keys as I look at refinishing a piano case. = Your surface preparation and repairs must be done first, spraying = lacquer on a piano sanded and left in 80 grit will not be as smooth and = look as good as a case sanded to 600 grit, grain-filled and sprayed. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Ross=20 To: Pianotech=20 Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 12:06 PM Subject: Re: Moulded Keytops, problems buffing Hi, Joe had mentioned problems buffing. I also have problems in this area. I had thought on a softer buffing wheel, but have been unable to = find a source. The selections available at my suppliers, are limited.=20 Any ideas? I had thought on slowing the wheel down. Would that help? John M. Ross jrpiano@win.eastlink.ca=20 From: MICHAEL MORVAN=20 To: Pianotech=20 Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 11:50 AM Subject: Re: Moulded Keytops Joe, I agree with you 100%, thank you, it is wonderful that you = know these things and are willing to share them. Molded keytops are all = the same dimension within one set. Keysticks unfortunately are not = (except for several sets of Yamaha keys I've covered that were within = 0.004 of each other). I've found that most sets of keys differ in = length, width and height. I have one set of keys I'm recovering now = where the keysticks vary in width up to 0.065. This makes recovering = them tricky. If you have a keystick wider than the top you will have to = trim the stick, if the top is wider you will have to trim the top. = Molded tops being the same width have the contours and radiuses "molded" = into them, so if you trim this you will, as you said then have to = reshape them, the radiuses and contour to match and yes, the dreaded = buffing. I prefer to apply what I call custom tops. This is similar to = factory procedures in which you apply a separate top and front. If done = this way one can trim the excess and shape the keys regardless of the = inconsistencies in width and yield good visual results. I've found that = buffing plastic and ivory both have there areas of concern, but I use = different wheels and techniques for both with good results. On the topic = of keytop materials, I'm pretty sure I have all of the material = available within the states and offer them. I have also acquired = material from Aug. Laukhuff and Otto Heuss from Germany as well as P&S = organ supply from England. These materials are of very high quality and = texture but expense prevents their wide use. I've noticed that piano = manufacturers are trending towards thicker and thicker tops, this means = replacement tops will need to be thicker. I actually have a stash of = keytop material that is 0.105 thick, but very rarely use them. I am not = adverse to machining down the keystick to accommodate a new top because = I am doing it on milling machines with tolerances to within a few = thousandths of an inch, and it must be done. If one measures a keystick = at 0.970 and is putting on a top that is 0.075 than you machine the key = to 0.895 and you have retained the original dimension. The original = dimension must be maintained or there will be a regulation nightmare. In = some cases I find that a keystick has been machined with little regard = for tolerances, and then a corrective measure must be applied. Three = choices exist, have a new keyboard made, use a thicker or thinner top = (depending on which direction the error is made), or build up the keys. = Two of these choices are very expensive. Keytop replacement is tricky = and is a decision that should be well thought out. The keyboard is a = major focal point of the piano, it is the interaction point with the = piano and is the foundation of all regulation. It is a challenge to = balance appearance, playability and economy. Joe, what do you mean by = "stink in my shop?" are you referring to a particular glue or the smell = of machining off old plastic and ivory? Mike ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Joe Garrett=20 To: pianotech=20 Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 1:03 AM Subject: Re: Moulded Keytops Michael Morvan said: "The quality of the keytop, quality of = the =3D piano, quality of the rebuild, preference of the customer, = knowledge and =3D preference of the technician and budget. Crappy "molded" = keytops are =3D nice if applied properly, and three thousand dollars worth = of new ivory =3D is "crappy" if not applied properly. Molded keytops have the = advantage =3D of being inexpensive, uniform in shape and appearance, and = relatively =3D easy to apply with minimal skill, tooling and yields fair = results. A =3D disadvantage is that many people feel that they are a cheap = top and as a =3D result do not use them." Michael, What you've said, I agree with. However, it's what you = didn't say about moulded keytops that concerns me. 1. Moulded keytops assumes that all key sets are the same = dimension, which they are not. Therefore, trimming is necessary. Here = lies the rub, as trimming of moulded keytop material is far more = difficult than other materials. Especially in making the key set look = consistant and have a smooth feel under the players hands. Secondly, if = you've ever had to (try) to buff out scratches of moulded key top = material, (and I'm sure you have, if you do keytops for a living.), it's = next to impossible, as the material is too soft and will "burn/gaul" = when even light pressure on a buffing wheel is applied. I'm not saying = it can't be done, but it's a royal pain in the patoot to do!<G> Lastly, = my aversion to moulded keytops is that it is too thick, especially for = many older pianos with tight tolerances of the piano furniture. This = requires milling the keystick down. I am totally averse to this practice = for many reasons. Some of the "moulded keytop material" from Europe is = better as some of it is what we call "Plexiglass". This material can be = sanded and buffed. It's still too thick for my eye.<G> I too do keytops, = but as only part of my overall service to my clients. I used to have = someone else do it, as I really don't like the stink in my shop. Out of = frustration with others I've taken to doing it....stink or not.<G> Regards, Joe Garrett, R.P.T. Captain, Tool Police Squares R I= ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/attachments/99/83/aa/1d/attachment.htm ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment--
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