---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment On 29-jan-05, at 4:49, David Love wrote: > I just want to revisit this for a minute. =A0While the greater=20 > preciseness of the dip/aftertouch etc., makes sense, the see-saw=20 > analogy doesn=92t, at least not on the surface. =A0It seems to me that = the=20 > reason the child bounces in the air when the see-saw comes to an=20 > abrupt halt is not because the abrupt halt causes the child on the=20 > other end to accelerate faster, rather it is because the abrupt halt=20= > causes separation between the constantly accelerating child and the=20 > more rapidly de-accelerating see-saw.=A0 I would appreciate an=20 > engineering analysis considering not only the flexibility of the key,=20= > but the flexibility of the hammer shank as well and whether there is=20= > really adequate distance remaining between the hammer and the string=20= > at the point at which the key bottoms out for any real difference in=20= > acceleration of the hammer to occur, if any of you engineers cares to=20= > offer one.=A0 The fact that the touch and the sound changes after putting in a new=20 punching has, in my opinion, nothing to do with key and shank flex. The mass and stiffness of especially the key is much too big for a=20 small item like this punching to get seriously influenced that much=20 more and the increase in sound is, after all, not really that dramatic.=20= It is there, but I would say that in most pianos it is an increase in=20 loudness of maybe 5 to 10 %. I therefor remain convinced that it is the harder bounce, caused by a=20 firmer underground, that makes the tone louder , especially after=20 inserting the firmer punching because it of the firmer 'underground',=20 the more so, because an increase in loudness is already noticeable=20 during 'soft play'. The small increase in sound is noticeable every time, but only if the=20 original punching is softer. When the original punching is equal in=20 firmness or even more firm (not to say hard), the loudness in tone will=20= decrease. To me it seems obvious that when the sea saw comes down harder, the=20 child on the high end must hold on tighter to the bar on the sea saw=20 because of the reactionary forces. But, I have in my feeble possessions only a swimming diploma, a=20 driver's license and a certificate which proves I attended the=20 pianotech school in Amsterdam, so of course it would be interesting to=20= hear what a 'specialist' has to say about this, although it will not=20 change the opinion of all the technicians who were able to try out the=20= firmer punching. Firmer is Firmer, and louder is louder. > > As a bit of anecdotal evidence (for what it=92s worth) on this note, I=20= > tuned and regulated a Baldwin today, medium grand with very firm white=20= > punchings under the keys.=A0 They were firm enough that I found the=20 > feeling at the bottom of the stroke somewhat unpleasant.=A0 After=20 > regulating and voicing the piano I replaced a couple of the punchings=20= > with newer softer ones as I carry a few (Pianotek pear green 7/8=94=20 > diameter, fairly firm, medium thick 5.5 mm).=A0 Not only did the new=20= > punchings produce a key stroke that felt much nicer on the fingers=20 > with no discernable sacrifice on the ability to accurately regulate=20 > the dip, but the tone was unchanged.=A0 Obviously, I=92m curious if = this=20 > phenomenon is real or imagined.=A0 I might add that I do firmly = believe=20 > in the placebo effect and can see how a difference in the feel of the=20= > action might contribute to a difference in perception of the tone, at=20= > least from the player=92s perspective.=A0 I don=92t imagine that the=20= > listener, not being able to feel the bottom of the keystroke, would=20 > notice anything at all. =A0 I do not know the punchings you described, used by Baldwin, but if they=20= are very hard, I can easily imagine that a softer punching feels=20 nice(r). After all, a too hard landing is usually never a nice=20 experience, generally speaking (; For that reason, we chose for elasticity with a certain firmness, and=20 the best choice is of course Wurzen felt, because that factory makes=20 the finest felt in the world because it has the highest felt=20 homogeneity. The firmness, caused by the density/homogeneity of the felt and,=20 especially, the natural elasticity caused by the high quality wool=20 fibers create a firmer touch than most punchings, without causing the=20 feeling of unpleasantness you described from the Baldwin punching. I do not know the pear green punching you describe, so I am not able to=20= compare them, but in the opinion of our customers, and myself, there=20 has not been, yet, a conical punching like ours that makes for such a=20 precise after touch, and after touch is for me the most important issue=20= when it comes to fine regulation. Of course after touch is a flexible=20= issue, but on the other hand, it is not, as we are taking about 10ths=20 of a mm. We also have received affirmative and rather positive responses, -=20 especially - form customers in the USA (see Dale Erwin's comment=20 below), which proves that the punching we sent them has some very=20 special qualities - unless one does not want to believe those comments. In earlier posts, years ago, I have already described my experience=20 with the high quality Yamaha and Steinway punching and the fact that=20 they too are conical. I heard this effect for the first time during the CP course in=20 Hamamatsu, where my teacher showed me the difference between a soft=20 punching and a Yamaha punching, and the - subtle - difference in tone=20 when you put the conical side below, instead of up (btw, there are=20 several kinds of Yamaha punching for several models). I have had the very same experience at Steinway in Hamburg. The fact that major factories have and use this knowledge, and that=20 they teach this to their trainees, also proves the value and knowledge=20= of using a specific, higher quality front punching. The title of the email to which I react now said " Andres punching=20 tested". I understand that your email was a reaction to somebody else's email,=20 but it now may seem as if you have tested my front punching, which, if=20= I read your message well, you have not done yet, so I would suggest to=20= you, if you allow me to say so, to test our new punching first, before=20= we go on with this conversation. Because of the "Placebo effect" in general, but also because you=20 mentioned this effect here, I have time and again given the advice to : "Listen carefully to a selected tone of an instrument (with softer=20 punching) and try to memorize the sound and especially the way it=20 feels. Remove the existing punching and put in the Wurzen felt one. Repeat the=20= listening and touch process, and repeat this a couple of times. Most technicians (and pianists) get very excited and confused the very=20= first time, but, naturally, want to make sure that it is true what they=20= heard and felt, so it is best to change the punching repeatedly until=20 the difference is undoubted". An open mind, neutrality, and professional experience will undoubtedly=20= give a fair answer. Andr=E9 Oorebeek Amsterdam The Netherlands Where 'music' is no harm can be > David Love > davidlovepianos@comcast.net > > -----Original Message----- > From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On=20= > Behalf Of antares > Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 9:35 AM > To: Pianotech > Subject: Re: Andres punching tested > > =A0 > > > On 13-jan-05, at 7:06, gordon stelter wrote: > > Please explain the suspected mechanism behind tonal > change due to punching substitution. > G > > =A0 > > > quote from me in another email to the list : > > Well, that is a subtle issue but not hard to explain : > It is a matter of transferring energy. > If the upper surface of the front punching is the smallest, the=20 > transfer of energy will be enhanced to the bottom more easily. > Suppose you strike a giant, non conical, front punching with your=20 > fist, and you strike that front punching in the middle.... > Part of the energy will be absorbed by the outermost sides of that=20 > very same punching and the sides may even curl up a little. > > Now you have a giant conical front punching, meaning that the upper=20= > surface is smaller that the bottom side, and you again strike it in=20 > the middle. > There is less mass on the upper side, so the transfer of energy to=20 > the bottom is more direct. > That's the meaning of a conical punching. > > Of course, the effect will be even stronger if the fabric of the=20 > front punching is not soft, the way so many front punchings are, but=20= > instead more dense and thus more firm. > That's the beauty of the front punching I described before : It is=20 > more dense because it is made of very dense felt instead of woven=20 > fabric. > A more dense front punching allows for a more precise key depth. A=20 > more precise key depth allows for a more precise regulation. A more=20 > precise regulation allows for a more precise after touch. A more=20 > precise after touch allows for a more precise hammer striking=20 > distance. A more defined hammer striking distance allows for more=20 > energy, and more energy allows for a better transfer of energy. > So there the circle is rounded : one of the smaller parts of our=20 > actions, the front punching, plays actually a major role in the=20 > forming and making of tone. > The making of tone is, in the end, what it is all about. > > and: > > A key is like a sea saw. > Usually, we find an old car tire under both sides of the sea saw to=20= > soften the impact. Nevertheless, a little child sitting on the high=20 > end of the sea saw will bump upwards slightly because of the impact at=20= > the lower end. > Now, if we take away the tires, the impact will be much harder and it=20= > will hurt the behind of the child coming down, but it will also cause=20= > the other child to almost get airborne, because the force of the=20 > impact is much stronger. > That is the an analogy in regard to a more firm front punching : It=20= > causes a more intense transfer of energy and thereby creates a louder=20= > tone. > Your regulation can be more precise, thereby giving you the maximum=20= > tonal output. > > unquote > > If you need more info, mail me privately. > > Andr=E9 Oorebeek > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Erwinspiano@aol.com > To: pianotech@ptg.org ; caut@ptg.org > Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 8:58 PM > Subject: Andres punching tested > > > List > While putting the final hours on a newly bellied > D I did an experiment. > I had installed the usual Thick green punching > a while back prior to receiving the New Oorebeck > front rail punching's. So I listened to the sound of > F-4 carefully, checked the dip , then changed to the > new ones, checked the dip , played the note & the > sound suddenly came together with more power and > clarity than the first punching. The solidity under > my finger was firm and sure. > Thinking it to be an anomally I changed back > to the green ones. The Sound diminsihed & lacked > focus. Well ,I did this a bout three times on the > same note with the same result. I then checked a > bass note f-1 with the same effect. > I'd say the new puncing has a similar > beneficial yet cumulative effect much like to mating > & hammers to & leveling strings > I placed the green punching between two pieces > of thin maple & put a calipers on each side. The > compression with modest force would change easily as > much as .030. The white new punching only .010. > Considering all this, since the key is where > the power is generated it needs to have a precise > stopping moment. If not after touch can change to a > depth of .420 even with an initial dip setting of > .390 .(which is my preferred dip in Steinways > whenever possible.) > Think of the distance in excessive jack travel > especially on parts with a narrow window for jack > movement & also it's effect on slowing repitition > performance. With the white punchings a far more > dependable dip /touch can be assured. > Think of the improvement in SOUND Baby!!!!!!!! > I noticed no change in noise even though this > is a pressed felt & not woven. > I immediately changed the entire set & tomorrow > or Friday I'll have a chance to hear & feel the > whole piano. > Regards > Dale Erwin > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > _______________________________________________ > pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > > > > friendly greetings > from > Andr=E9 Oorebeek > > Vita Dura Est > Where 'music' is no harm can be Andr=E9 Oorebeek Amsterdam The Netherlands ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 21835 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/attachments/80/14/33/94/attachment.bin ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment--
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