Circle of Sound

[Richard Brekne]

Ron.. with my last post in thought... perhaps I may try again and 
directly address some of the interesting points I'd like more clear and 
objective ellaboration on.

O

>>
>> Both of these are primarily statements that are clearly matters of 
>> personal taste,
>
>
> Agreed, they can't be anything else. You seem to subjectively think 
> that I compared 'some very basic design issues'. I would say that they 
> are 'fundamental design issues' which will very likely determine the 
> fundamental tonal characteristics of an instrument.

Language point first....... grin.. I am not sure I see the  basic 
fundemental difference between the formulations : 'basic design issues' 
and 'fundamental design issues' .

>
>>  yet they are presented as fact backed up by some very light analysis 
>> of some basic physical functionings relating to the 
>> plate/rim/soundboard.
>
>
> We'll its hardly likely to be a thesis on the Pianotech list. But if 
> you feel my experience is not of value then just write me off. It's 
> fine by me.

I see no hint of any doubts relative to your experience, skill, or 
knowledge anywhere at all in my post. I simply pointed out that you 
seemed to be attempting to justify your own persona preferences with 
some kind of factual material.  Its sort of like saying... "Trout is a 
better fish then Cod because the meat is red and it is not a salt water 
fish."

>
>> What tonal negatives ?? according to whom ?? What outstanding tonal 
>> characteristics... ?? according to whom ??
>
>
> Clearly, according to me. Notice that I wrote "I believe" in the first 
> sentence you quoted. Clearly, 'I believe' that there is something in 
> the weight of a plate, regarding its influence on tonal quality. 
> Certainly I could be wrong, but after about twenty five years thinking 
> about this plate-weight parameter, I still believe at this point in 
> time that its got legs. While I might well be wrong, and I do still 
> question the idea, I still believe its important.

I believe its important too... But I still dont know what these presumed 
tonal negatives are specifically. What tonal negatives are caused by a 
light plate ? And how are they justified as being negative ... from as 
objective a stance as is possible ?  I'm just asking for the 
specifics... because I want to know what you think.. beyond  vague 
allusions to the value these tonal characteristics may or may not have..


>
>> Furthermore... none of these really offer us anything of value, if 
>> that is to be defined as gaining an understanding as to what kind of 
>> specific and objective tonal characteristics are achieved with this 
>> or that particular change in any given parameter.  Why cant we just 
>> leave out the judgemental bit
>
>
> Sometimes the judgement bit is all we've got. Sometimes we don't know 
> exactly why such and such a parameter has the effect that it appears 
> to have, but that shouldn't stop us from drawing a conclusion. A 
> conclusion is not necessarily false just because it can't be 
> documented as fact using the current tools at hand.

Again... you get no argument from me on this point. I just want to know 
specifcally what that conclusion is about.  What exact tonal 
characteristics result from using a lighter plate that you find 
unnagreeable ?

>
>> ....Ok.. I understand any descriptive comment is bound to be a bit 
>> coloured... but we could at least avoid such obvious declarations of 
>> pure taste.
>
>
> This discipline will always involve pure taste. Sure its subjective, 
> but ultimately we have to decide what we believe is the essence of 
> 'good tone', and if we are trying to build a worthwhile instrument we 
> must also ultimately decide, of all the multitudes of variables which 
> can apply to any design, which ones will yield the tonal qualities we 
> are seeking.
>
Granted...granted also is the difficulty in holding seperate the 
subjective and the objective... which was what my post was about 
really... nothing more.

> After the decisions are made, an instrument will either sink or swim 
> based on its perceived merits. I agree with you that we must always 
> try to ascertain what are the facts, but with pianos the essence of 
> what constitutes good tone cannot be prescribed by some rule book or 
> by some stand over merchant telling us what is or isn't good. 
> Ultimately its going to be decided by what the end user likes.

This of course is un-argueable. Goes without saying really... The most 
popular pianos down through time are ... well.. popular because they 
have stood up to (among other things) that exact test.

>
> I didn't mean to offend you, and sorry if I have. 

You didtnt... not at all.

> But surely we have to be able to offer an opinion on the merits of 
> various design factors based on experience. The two pianos, in my 
> experience, which initially caused me to believe that plate weight was 
> important, were the Baldwin SD-10 and the Welmar 6'0 grand. Both have 
> quite massive plate thickness out behind the hitch plate (much thicker 
> than the plate we use for our 225). The SD-10 from memory is well over 
> 16 mm thick, and the Welmar is over 20 mm thick at the web between the 
> treble and bass bridges. While the original workmanship of both pianos 
> seemed to be somewhat wanting, both had outstanding sustain and the 
> plates seemed to be the facilitating stand-out parameter.

AH.... sustain !!! grin.. theres one of those parameters.. objective 
bits that I can use to understand better both what the affects of 
heavier plates may be... and what your tastes for sound are all about.  
More of that kind of thing is all I am asking for.  Then we can get into 
whether or not its really factual or not... and move on.

>
> I thought my earlier post was quite innocuous. I didn't expect someone 
> to jump up and down about it.

Again.. it was not my meaning to jump on anything.  Just trying my best 
to improve communications in what ways I can.

>
> Ah well, another day at the office.
>
> Ron O.
>
I trust your summer down there is more enjoyable then our winter up 
here.... rain rain, and atter rain... with an interlude of real winter 
from time to time. 

Cheers
RicB