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Other interesting tid bits in the rest of the post as well.
Dale
Hello Dale,
Congratulations on the reception received for your piano there in
Sacramento. I hope sometime I may be able to hear it myself. I am not the least bit
surprised to hear that your piano has had such a wonderful reception. I have
just now waded through three or four hundred emails but want to make a few
comments interposed below. Some will be about your piano and some regarding
Ron O's frustrated post. I certainly hope, if he is reading this, that he
will reconsider any departure as he is a most valuable contributor to this list,
along with the other members of the group of "redesigners'. Still, this
does smack somewhat, at least, as far as I can see, of "see it my way or I am
going to take my marbles and go home." I think we all have this impulse
when deeply held beliefs are challenged, which is perfectly natural, but we
should try to overcome such as it is really, in the contention of ideas and
examination of the possibilities that rapid progress may well lie.
_Erwinspiano@aol.com_ (mailto:Erwinspiano@aol.com) wrote:
David wrote
I think there are those who when put to a rebuilding request by a
customer need to try and recreate a "Steinway sound" but might wish to
employ what has been represented as a more reliable method than CC. But
if the RC&S method produces its own unique characteristics and is, as
you say, something which certainly didn't sound like a Steinway, then it
would be good to know whether those differences are inherent in the
differences between the two methods or simply a matter of customizing a
particular design.
Hi Dave
>> I've been following this thread in my post convention fatigue.
I'd like to speak to this. I build rib crowned boards with some panel
compression support as well. These typically have slightly taller ribs & less
wide than the original.
I also have some compression in the panel. I typically dry to no less than
5.5% emc & no more than 6%.
I like this range for the results I'm getting & regional climate
conditions. It's not excessive by any means . I believe for my ears I like the sounds
of designs that retain some compression. I Use sitka spruce panels, which
Steinway does & some diaphramizing which they also do. The panels are similar
in thickness but on the thinner side. I press in a dished caul as they do. I
use the same scales with minor alterations. & Yes I like the tri-chord sound
in Ds.
I use primarily white Spruce ribs on the bottom and sometimes some Sitka
in the top treble(s) ie. Bs & Ds. Which they Don't. I no longer use sugar
pine except in some instances or in smaller pianos. Which they still do in ALL
models. I can hear the difference between a board ribbed with sugar pine &
one with spruce.
I market what I call a "variable radius soundboard" crown which means the
ribs are cut with increasingly steeper radius going into the treble & many
folks on this list & off do this. Most of this is not news & many use this.
My point is that all our bellied pianos sound to me like some of the best
Steinways I've heard even though they are built in this non traditional
way. I have fewer Killer octave problems & better balance of registers or as
good as the very best C.C. design at least . This point is the same as what
others are saying ,The methods are most reliable & predictable.
My point is,finally. To me These pianos aren't some derivation of the
Steinway sound but the best qualities of the Steinway sound. Great sustain,even
thru the breaks & treble areas, rich tone color, & power which isn't driven to
distortion & FFF levels.
This is very nice to hear and, personally, judging from your comments made
over the years regarding sound I have always had the expectation that your
pianos would sound great and am not at all surprised to see such results
obtained as I said above. I have similar, although perhaps slightly differing,
expectations for the others in the redesigner crowd, some contributing here
regularly and some not.
However, generally it has not been you urging the view that anything but
the latest creation of some design methodology was the only acceptable result
out there, but such a view has been urged carrying with it the not too subtle,
insidious, implication that people elsewhere were poor, deceived fools, for
liking what they like. Some have, and at one time this list blatantly
operated this way which was most unfortunate, in my opinion. I am well aware of
the sacrifice of time, hence money and the draining emotional strain
involved in moving contrarily to established norms, for example, the Steinway or
Yamaha juggernaut, and respect this, and, also, very much the efforts, as I
have always said, of those trying to produce pianos differing in various ways.
Why would they try to produce anything but the best product they could
achieve given the circumstances? All know this must be the case. Yet with any
contrary view one is always disheartened by what seems to be a kind of
badgering and supercilious dismissal of any other perspective on the part of some
of this group, not necessarily you, especially when this seems to be
associated with events which, in one's own experience, are different, for example the
public appreciation for Steinway, whether warranted or not, which has just
been the immediate source of another dustup here on the list.
I find it pointless to argue back and forth on some dispute, especially, as
I once tried on a certain set of principles, at the cost of a considerable
waste of time and productive energy, as it is not likely any minds will be
changed here. As I have said before, here are only words and the experience of
hearing or playing a particular instrument is likely to be the only way that
individual minds will undergo suasion one way or the other. So,
congratulations again, on your results.
Even though he has been upbraided by a number of posters for what some would
call such bantering, I think Richard Brekne makes a valid point. It does
take two to tango. One can't, or at least shouldn't, dismiss away relevant
facts, even if inconvenient and the status of Steinway is by no means simply
the result only of marketing PR.
Many times I disagree with the bases of some claims made by some of the
redesigner crowd: in my opinion, they could proceed possibly more expediously
if they would get, for example, some of the underlying physics and history
straight, at least from my point of view, and from that of, perhaps, others.
Still I certainly respect the efforts that come from this school of thought
wholeheartedly. The latest discussion on simple wave theory, to take but one
instance, is another, among the many, examples of the facts of some of the
most elemental, fundamental aspects of physics seemingly disregarded,
misunderstood, or, unknown. How can it be expected then to be otherwise than that
substantial contention would then flow from such types of things?
I live in an area and, a city particularly, overrun by trembling, vaunting
culture snobs who buy their "culture" in the "Cultural District", who are
frequent attendees at the very numerous musical concerts and who are completely
taken in by the Steinway mystique. Here, as elsewhere, at concerts in most
venues, they listen frequently to instruments at the same time both clangy,
dull and uneven, no doubt inferior to the same instrument had it employed
even the simple remedy of using a merely adequate hammer, and stumble over
themselves to scream and applaud after each recital. Yet, underneath these
defects, especially from seats in the hall, there is still a great sound, or at
least musically acceptable one, although certainly capable of much improvement
in my mind. I think Richards point was that it is this, as well as the PR
hype, they respond to and to deny this, in my mind, is to miscontrue the
obvious.
Nevertheless, to chronically lay at the feet of the substantial marketing
bull and PR machine of this company the onus of impeding the development of the
industry, and attributing "stagnation" to it, is not factual, in my opinion.
If anything, it should be attributed to the ignorance and superficiality of
the consumer. However, they may just like the sound, as do I on most of
these intruments. This is not to say it cannot be better. I have no doubt it
could and, indeed, has been.
I have no problem or difficulty selling my clients on these modern features.
When they hear it they get it. NO client has ever said no I don't want you
to do that & none ever said it didn't sound like a Steinway.
Ask any one who heard My D (at the PTG Cal State) last weekend if they
heard a Steinway Sound. Or the Concert artist who performed Gershwin ,who stopped
before the finale of Rhapsody in blue To State what an Amazing piano this
was & because of it he was performing his uncut version. It was a great
experience for me personally & I was gratified to have many enthusiastic words of
support from some other rebuilders, Technicians & friends.
I thank them all with mutual respect & support
Dale Erwin
Once again, I want to say how I appreciate these kinds of posts, coming, as
I said once before, from the voice of experience and giving us the benefit of
it, as does Ron O, with his very insightful posts on a generality of
subjects and, particularly, the wonderfully innovative, I-rib soundboard he has
produced. Similar kudos to Ron N, Dell Fandrich and Terry Falwell for their
efforts but we (meaning the non-redesigner crowd) still have to reserve the
right to express our own opinions, even if arising from different experiences
and perspectives.
Regards, Robin Hufford
think Sarah pointed out what might be some
considerations in those differences. I can't address those issues with
any real knowledge as I am not an engineer and lack adequate experience.
But I can hear differences between different types of pianos and I am
interested in exploring the topic further even if it is only in a
speculative manner.
David Love
_davidlovepianos@comcast.net_ (mailto:davidlovepianos@comcast.net)
Erwins Pianos Restorations
4721 Parker Rd.
Modesto, Ca 95357
209-577-8397
Rebuilt Steinway , Mason &Hamlin Sales
_www.Erwinspiano.com_ (http://www.erwinspiano.com/)
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