---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment
At 8:11 PM -0700 3/7/04, Donald Mannino wrote:
>
>. . . your criticism of the hooked bridge . . .=20
>I want to suggest, though, that perhaps there=20
>may be trade-offs that have not occurred to you=20
>which have led so many piano designers to make=20
>their bridges this way.
I would be very interested to hear from you,=20
particularly about what design aspects I may have=20
overlooked.
> I am not a piano design engineer
This is of no consequence to the discussion at=20
hand. Alfred Wegener was trained as an=20
Astronomist and Meteorologist, but it didn't stop=20
him coming up with the idea of plate tectonics.=20
He was ridiculed by the Geologists of the day for=20
his views, but he was right and they were wrong.=20
So go ahead, fire away.
>but I can think of a couple of reasons at the=20
>moment why bridges might be made with a hook at=20
>the tenor end.
And they are? (I can think of a couple as well,=20
but these reasons don't constitute good design)
>I don't want to get into a disagreement over=20
>whether those reasons are valid or not, as that=20
>ends up as a disagreement over opinions=20
>regarding the relative merits of the trade-offs=20
>involved.
I do not subscribe to that view. I am prepared to=20
debate the issue, particularly if all=20
participants genuinely are interested in taking=20
understanding to a new level.
> I have no argument against making the bridges=20
>'hook free,' I only have an argument against=20
>saying that this is the only correct way to make=20
>pianos.
I didn't say that it was the only correct way,=20
but I am certainly to prepared to state that any=20
piano with a hockey stick bridge is, in my=20
opinion, grossly inferior to a log style scale=20
with an appropriately located cross-over for the=20
size of piano. There may yet be better designs=20
than log scaling, but so far nothing has come=20
along yet which looks more promising. My views=20
have not come about as some 'hair brained' idea=20
dreamed up last week. I have studied and=20
reflected upon a range of different instruments=20
over a period of more than fifteen years,=20
gradually building up a personal conviction, as=20
to the merit of this scaling approach.
>I respect your work and your instruments, and I=20
>especially respect your dedication to applying=20
>new ideas to piano design. It is a little hard=20
>to have respect for someone who assumes that=20
>their own ideas are the only valid ones, though.
I do not assume or state that my ideas are the=20
only valid ones. And I certainly didn't put=20
forward the idea with any delusion that it might=20
gain your respect. Furthermore, I dispute that=20
log scaling is my idea alone. While I came up=20
with it independently many years ago (during 1985=20
in fact, while servicing a B=F6sendorfer for the=20
Sydney International Piano Competition - in those=20
days it used to take me four hours to design a=20
new log scale using a HP11C pocket calculator, 9=20
seconds per inharmonicity calc), there are a=20
number of technicians who contribute to this list=20
who share my view, and who almost certainly came=20
up with idea independently as well. If you were=20
paying attention you would have noticed that=20
others, such as Del Fandrich and Ron Nossaman,=20
are similarly convinced about the inadequacy of=20
hockey stick scaling. The primary reason, I=20
believe, why factories persist with this archaic=20
scaling is that they lack the courage to move the=20
break up to where it aught to be for pianos of a=20
given size. Unfortunately, company supporters=20
such as yourself appear to be so busy defending=20
the corporate position that alternative ideas are=20
likely to be put-down before they are given=20
serious scrutiny.
Your reluctant position reminds me of the long=20
road which was trodden by many, myself included,=20
towards encouraging Kawai to quarter cut their=20
bridge caps. I first brought his matter to the=20
company's attention in my early days in this=20
industry (around 1980 I wasted a morning with one=20
of the company representatives/disciples to no=20
avail). I subsequently discovered that others had=20
been trying to bring the same matter to their=20
attention also. But as usual, all were considered=20
to be 'lunatics out of left field'. Frankly, when=20
I reflect on the closed attitude which so often=20
pervades this industry, I some times wonder why=20
we get out of bed in the mornings. And today,=20
after years of prodding, Kawai are finally=20
quarter cutting their bridge caps. So I suppose=20
we can look forward to another thirty years of=20
inappropriately low breaks with hockey stick ends=20
from all the mainstream factories with their=20
'research' facilities, until finally the 'new-log=20
idea' might see the light of day when it will no=20
doubt be heralded as a new innovation.
>Piano design involves too many compromises to=20
>state that there is only one correct way to make=20
>a piano - and how boring they would be if there=20
>_were_ only one way!
On this, you won't get any disagreement from me.=20
But if you dare to take a measuring tape to note=20
=4621 of a Fazioli 278, Kawai EX, Steinway D and=20
Yamah CF, they all have a speaking length of 183=20
cm (please don't suggest that this is some=20
mystical-magical speaking length that years of=20
dedicated research has determine to be the magic=20
length). The first point of note is that the=20
lowest note on the long bridge of all four=20
concert pianos is F21 - how original are the late=20
comers? The second point of note, that all F21=20
notes are 183 cm, is simply depressing. So you=20
see, the boring state of affairs that you believe=20
we should guard against is already with us.
Ron O.
At 2:52 AM -0400 4/7/04, David Skolnik wrote:
>Ron-
>A gold mine. Thanks. I still have to work out=20
>the time differences. The stream is, on the=20
>whole, very good. The engineering is excellent.=20
>Distortion due to the transmission medium is=20
>evident in the applause...
Yes, the applause and hi level treble passages=20
seem to carry the worst distortion.
>a high frequency metallic sound. It's hard for=20
>me to tell how this impacts the piano sound. No=20
>matter...what a great opportunity. I'll be=20
>sorry to miss any of this. What a shame it's=20
>not available as audio-on-demand.
I am informed that the performances will be made=20
available for on-demand streaming. So far I am=20
impressed with the tonal beauty of the Yamaha CF=20
(the voicing and tuning of this piano is first=20
rate), although it isn't as powerful as the=20
Steinway, which I find rather rough-edged, with a=20
short impedance characteristic in the top treble=20
section, with plenty of string noise in the=20
second top section and a rather boomy character=20
around the bass/treble transition (I'll have to=20
go along to have a listen in the hall, but I know=20
the acoustics of this room. They're appalling).=20
The Kawai EX sounds pretty good from the short=20
time I've heard it, but I need to hear more=20
performances from this piano to develop an=20
impression in my 'mind's-ear'. I feel that it=20
takes more than one performance on a piano to=20
gain an overall impression of its=20
characteristics. Different pianists seem to bring=20
out different characteristics in each instrument.
Any other views out there yet?
One good thing about this competition is that the=20
broadcast settings remain the same for each=20
piano, and the pianos are positioned at exactly=20
the same position on the stage each time. So any=20
perceived recording bias will be the same for all=20
pianos.
By the way, the Competition specialist=20
commentator, Gerard Willems, is the concert=20
pianist who recorded the Beethoven recordings on=20
the Stuart pianos over the past couple of years.
Ron O.
--
OVERS PIANOS - SYDNEY
Grand Piano Manufacturers
_______________________
Web http://overspianos.com.au
mailto:info@overspianos.com.au
_______________________
---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/attachments/77/bd/a9/a1/attachment.htm
---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment--
This PTG archive page provided courtesy of Moy Piano Service, LLC