All right. I can see that the first-position notes would be related to one another by the resonance of the instrument and would thus be in relative just intervals (or very close). But you have to begin somewhere, i.e. you must tune your Bb to something. And we indeed did tune our instruments before every performance. A-440 is the standard and for instruments that can play the A above middle-C this is a no-brainer. But for the trombone, playing A doesn't accomplish much since you can position the slide wherever you want. That's why it is tuned in the first, closed position. So that Bb is in tune with the other instruments--and I mean in all keys--we always tuned to an ET Bb using a meter. Sometimes, in stage band play, we would tune to the piano for convenience, but again this would have been in ET. A-440 doesn't imply ET in itself, but Bb-233.082 does. I remember my grandfather tuned his saxophones, clarinet, violin and guitar using a little tuning key. It was a chrome-plated bar mounted to a base much like a vibraphone with a single key. It came with a little mallet and was tuned to A-440. We used to play with it as kids. I often wonder what ever happened to it. Don A. Gilmore Mechanical Engineer Kansas City ----- Original Message ----- From: "David M. Porritt" <dm.porritt@verizon.net> To: <pianotech@ptg.org> Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 11:36 AM Subject: Re: Temperaments... > Don: > > On your trombone, the open pitches are from the harmonic ladder. The low B-flat is what it is, the F above that is a perfect 5th. The D that comes from the 5th harmonic is not an ET D, but rather a 5/4 ratio 3rd. Of course on the trombone you have the widest latitude for matching the correct pitch of your ensemble, but the open (first position) notes are not tempered at all. > > dave > > > __________________________________________ > David M. Porritt, RPT > Meadows School of the Arts > Southern Methodist University > Dallas, TX 75275 > > > ----- Original message ----------------------------------------> > From: Don Gilmore <dgilmore@kcmpi.net> > To: Pianotech <pianotech@ptg.org> > Received: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 10:10:17 -0500 > Subject: Re: Temperaments... > > >It seems to me that you would want to tune/design wind instruments to ET. > >And I say this not to tout the Almighty Equal Temperament; I say this > >precisely because these instruments can bend pitches. I would think that > >you would design the hole layout so that a musician can avail himself of the > >maximum pitch-bend range. > > >If you lay out the entire range it would take to be able to bend a given > >note to produce a pure interval when played along with any other scale note, > >the ET pitch of that note is *exactly* in the center. Isn't that where you > >would want it? It seems silly to me to design the instrument to offset this > >center sharp or flat from ET. What would be the point since you can bend > >the note anywhere you like anyway? I'm sure the range of possible bending > >for an accomplished musician is probably wide enough to cover the largest > >bend, even if the instrument is designed off-center, but again, why would > >you do this? > > >A previous poster mentioned that bassoons are tuned for "just intervals". > >This doesn't even make sense. Just in what key? Just between which notes? > >I don't see how this is practical, or even possible. Even a monophonic > >instrument has to be able to play in all twelve keys, in harmony with other > >horns. > > >I played the trombone in high school and college band and first position > >(closed slide) is always tuned to ET. Violins can alter notes by changing > >the position of their fingers on the string, but what about open strings? > >Don't they tune them to ET? And if not, why not? They have no control over > >them while playing at all. > > >I'm not saying that ET sounds better than pure intervals. Of course it > >doesn't. But it seems to me that you must have a central base to work from > >to be able to play in all keys. A scheme that might make one key easier to > >play pure intervals in would necessarily make another key more difficult. > >Why would you do this? > > >Don A. Gilmore > >Mechanical Engineer > >Kansas City > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Ron Koval" <drwoodwind@hotmail.com> > >To: <pianotech@ptg.org> > >Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 8:22 AM > >Subject: Temperaments... > > > >> This whole temperament thing is such a tiny niche of the world, even among > >> tuners! I went through all my years of study as a bassoonist, assuming > >that > >> ET was the norm, yet we trained for listening and adjusting to Just > >> intervals. It wasn't until I really dug into the subject a few years ago > >> that I realized that ET only exists in fixed pitch instruments, such as > >the > >> piano and organ. So much of the discussion is framed by what we THINK is > >> the norm, not what actually IS the norm. Think about that a minute. Not > >> in orchestras, not in bands, not in choirs, not in ensembles, ONLY when > >the > >> piano is brought into the mix does ET enter the picture. > >> > >> It becomes so obvious when you think about the speed of the thirds that we > >> work so hard to control on the piano. Do you think that an > >instrumentalist > >> would change the speed of the beating of the third, based on where in the > >> scale it lies? How impossible would that be?! I can just imagine: > >"Let's > >> see, I'm in the key of F, so the tonic should beat at 7bps, but the > >dominant > >> should beat at around 10 bps... but wait, that's only in one octave... oh, > >I > >> missed that measure, what's the next note?" > >> > >> That means, even though ET is accepted everywhere as the norm, it really > >> occupies a very small corner of musical expression in the world. Anyone > >> that tries to introduce an alternate tuning runs into the brick wall of > >> ignorance about the specifics of musical tuning. > >> > >> I feel that at this point, the best thing I can do is to speak directly to > >> pianists about the existance of playable temperaments. I hope to develop > >an > >> article to submit to the magazines that cater to pianists. Something to > >do > >> with temperaments as just another way for them to add contrasts to the > >> music. So much of what we do already as techs give pianist greater > >> contrasts, either through regulation, voicing, tuning, or rebuilding. > >> > >> Ron Koval > >> Chicagoland > >> > >> _________________________________________________________________ > >> MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page - FREE > >> download! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > >> > > > >_______________________________________________ > >pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > > _______________________________________________ > pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives >
This PTG archive page provided courtesy of Moy Piano Service, LLC