David, I thoroughly enjoyed reading you post. I have read and reread your post several times. even printed it out for my associate to read as an insight of what top expect on many pianos. Thanks for a great post, Tony Caught caute@optusnet.com.au ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vanderhoofven" <dkvander@joplin.com> To: <pianotech@ptg.org> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 3:16 PM Subject: Re: Steinway vs. The Tuner, Round One (Long) > At 07:56 PM 9/12/02, Alan Barnard wrote: > > >Tuned an "L" .... piano today and got thinking while = > >wrestling with it. Pinblock quite tight (somewhat jumpy pins), string = > >movement resistance quite high, and the collarless pins VERY sensitive = > >to pressure in any direction--up pitch, down pitch, flagpoling, = > >whatever. > > Hi Alan, belated welcome to the list. I live in the Ozarks also, so maybe > we will meet in person sooner or later. Steinway pianos take a different > approach to tuning. > > I have some questions for you: > > How old is the piano? Brand new? A few years old? Older? New Steinways > are easier to tune than older Steinways. > > Is there any rust on the strings? If there is rust on the strings, it can > cause problems with the string rendering through the agraffe. Also, the > rust on the strings can catch on the fibers of the understring cloth > between the tuning pin and agraffe. If there is rust, it is helpful to > lubricate the strings with Protek to allow the strings to move across the > cloth and through the agraffe. > > Use a good quality brush with natural fibers (no nylon bristles) to brush > all the dust away from the understring cloth. Vacuum all the dust and > debris from around the tuning pins and strings. Then, use a hypo oiler to > apply a few drops of Protek along each string where it crosses the > understring cloth. Then one very small drop of Protek at each point where > the string goes through the hole in the agraffe, and also where the string > crosses under the capo bar. > > Did you do a pitch correction while tuning? If so, how much pitch > change? A pitch change of more than 4 cents requires a separate tuning > pass to do the fine tuning. Do the pitch correction very quickly (10 or 20 > minutes max... Don't worry, you will get that fast with practice), then > follow-up with a fine tuning. > > Do you tune aurally, or with a tuning device? I ask this, because I have a > few "beast" pianos that were terrible to tune aurally for me, because of > the frustration of the pitch drop when trying to fine tune. When I use the > tuning device to assist, I can see (as well as hear) the string movement, > and it is easier for me to tune these "beasts". I actually wrote a letter > about several of these pianos that I called "untunable" because of similar > problems as you describe. After 4 or 5 years of experience tuning these > same pianos, they are still "beasts", but do hold a nice tuning. It just > takes more time. Whenever I tune one of these pianos, I can expect to add > an extra 1/'2 hour to hour to the tuning time. If I don't take the time to > work with the piano, the tuning isn't as good. Many people probably tune > much faster than me, and that is okay. I just take the time I need to do a > nice tuning. > > How much experience do you have tuning? How many pianos have you > tuned? With more experience, and with more tunings completed, You will > learn what you have to do to get the piano to behave. Tune as many pianos > as you can, and improve upon each tuning. > > When you have the tuning lever on the tuning pin, which direction does the > handle of the tuning lever point in relation to the string you are > tuning? 90 degrees to the string? Parallel to the string? Be careful to > move the tuning lever in a plane parallel to the string. If you bend the > tuning pin, it can "flagpole", as you have probably already > discovered. You can carefully "spring" the tuning pin into place and it > will hold. But if you bend the pin, it will "flagpole" and go back out of > tune. > > >I find many notes very hard to pull in for sweet unisons. > > If the piano has a lot of wear on the hammers (deep grooves and flat spots > on the crown), the tuning won't sound as good compared to a piano with nice > hammers. You may be hearing a lot of hammer noise (unlevel strings, > hammers that aren't "mated" to the strings, etc.) Also, if the hammers are > very hard with a bright sound, it is harder to get a sweet sound. > > If this is an old piano, and the agraffes and capo bar have a lot of string > wear (grooves), it can be hard to tune clean unisons. Also, if the piano > has not been tuned in a long time, the wire may have developed bends > (around the bridge pins, under the capo bar, and through the agraffes) that > resist your attempts to move the string to a new position. The strings > also may have developed flat spots, and it can be difficult to get the > string to move through the agraffe because of this. > > If the bridge pins are loose, or if the bridge surface has grooves, clean > unisons are more difficult to tune. > > Also, in the high treble, you may be hearing a lot of noise from the rear > duplex section (the aliquots) where the strings are unmuted. It is helpful > to mute off this section of the piano while tuning, and you will find that > a lot of the false beats that you hear will go away. Don Manino made some > bean bags that are very good for muting off the duplex area. > > >I was = > >personally taught by Randy Potter how to tune stable strings & pins but = > >found that moving the pin in teeny notches is very hard--too high, too = > >low, too high ... > > After you get the tuning pin close to the pitch you want, use steady > pressure on the tuning lever. You can "massage" the string into tune. I > have found that with old Steinway grands with rust on the strings, I almost > always have to approach the pitch from below. If you try to approach pitch > from above, you will find that the string suddenly goes very flat. At > first, move the tuning pin close to pitch using very small movements of the > tuning lever. But once you are close, use a steady push on the tuning > lever to get the final movement of the tuning pin. > > > >If I got it just a hair over pitch and tried to settle everything with = > >back pressure on the hammer, it dropped way too much. > > > Approach the pitch from below. > > >Finally, with time = > >running out and getting a little desperate, I started dropping pitch = > >(about a 45 degree turn of the hammer) > > > That is a LOT of tuning pin movement! But I can relate to your > frustration. Next time allow more time. Try to make very small > movements. Large movements make a stable tuning more difficult. > > > and tuning "from the bottom" with = > >a smooth steady pull while wanging the string pretty hard. > > > YES! Very firm blows with the hammer. When you start breaking strings and > action parts, back off on your test blow a little bit! Tune from the bottom. > > >Most of the = > >time I could stop right on pitch --even on strings I had spent WAY too = > >long trying to tune the "normal" way. > > > >But I worry about how stable they are as I could not "set" the pin in = > >the usual way. > > Call the customer a few days or week later to ask how they liked the > tuning, and if there are any problems. It may be just fine to them. If > they have any problems, take care of them and they will be happy. > > > >Is this pretty typical Steinway? > > Yes, I find this pretty typical. But, the tight tuning pins? Not so typical. > > >What about stability in these circumstances? > > See if you can visit the piano in a week or two and play it. You can see > for yourself if it is a stable tuning. > > > >What hammer techniques do y'all use on the beasts? > > > There is a good book on tuning lever technique by someone on list. (Can't > remember the name right now.) Help me out here, people! > > > >NOTE: While tuning, I was rehearsing a pretty negative inner dialog = > >about Steinway and all of their "genuine Steinway parts;" thinking how = > >expensive they are and how much they look like every other piano, etc. = > > Do what you can to get rid of the negative thoughts. I can't do a good > tuning if I am thinking bad about the piano, or the customer or > whatever. Bad thoughts = bad tuning. > > >BUT after I tuned it, I played it. Even for a small piano, what a = > >beautiful, sweet sound. Oh, the subtleties ...=20 > > That is the best part of tuning... getting to play on a freshly tuned piano! > > Alan, welcome to the list. > > Sincerely, > > David A. Vanderhoofven > Joplin, MO > > P.S. I welcome any constructive criticism about this post. Please let me > know if I am way off base here. > > _______________________________________________ > pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives
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