Steinway vs. The Tuner, Round One (Long)

Tony Caught caute@optusnet.com.au
Sun, 15 Sep 2002 13:58:48 +0930


David,

I thoroughly enjoyed reading you post. I have read and reread your post
several times. even printed it out for my associate to read as an insight of
what top expect on many pianos.

Thanks for a great post,

Tony Caught
caute@optusnet.com.au


----- Original Message -----
From: "Vanderhoofven" <dkvander@joplin.com>
To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: Steinway vs. The Tuner, Round One (Long)


> At 07:56 PM 9/12/02, Alan Barnard wrote:
>
> >Tuned an "L" .... piano today and got thinking while =
> >wrestling with it. Pinblock quite tight (somewhat jumpy pins), string =
> >movement resistance quite high, and the collarless pins VERY sensitive =
> >to pressure in any direction--up pitch, down pitch, flagpoling, =
> >whatever.
>
> Hi Alan, belated welcome to the list.  I live in the Ozarks also, so maybe
> we will meet in person sooner or later.  Steinway pianos take a different
> approach to tuning.
>
> I have some questions for you:
>
> How old is the piano?  Brand new?  A few years old? Older?  New Steinways
> are easier to tune than older Steinways.
>
> Is there any rust on the strings?  If there is rust on the strings, it can
> cause problems with the string rendering through the agraffe.  Also, the
> rust on the strings can catch on the fibers of the understring cloth
> between the tuning pin and agraffe.  If there is rust, it is helpful to
> lubricate the strings with Protek to allow the strings to move across the
> cloth and through the agraffe.
>
> Use a good quality brush with natural fibers (no nylon bristles) to brush
> all the dust away from the understring cloth.  Vacuum all the dust and
> debris from around the tuning pins and strings.  Then, use a hypo oiler to
> apply a few drops of Protek along each string where it crosses the
> understring cloth.  Then one very small drop of Protek at each point where
> the string goes through the hole in the agraffe, and also where the string
> crosses under the capo bar.
>
> Did you do a pitch correction while tuning?  If so, how much pitch
> change?  A pitch change of more than 4 cents requires a separate tuning
> pass to do the fine tuning.  Do the pitch correction very quickly (10 or
20
> minutes max... Don't worry, you will get that fast with practice), then
> follow-up with a fine tuning.
>
> Do you tune aurally, or with a tuning device?  I ask this, because I have
a
> few "beast" pianos that were terrible to tune aurally for me, because of
> the frustration of the pitch drop when trying to fine tune.  When I use
the
> tuning device to assist, I can see (as well as hear) the string movement,
> and it is easier for me to tune these "beasts".  I actually wrote a letter
> about several of these pianos that I called "untunable" because of similar
> problems as you describe.  After 4 or 5 years of experience tuning these
> same pianos, they are still "beasts", but do hold a nice tuning.  It just
> takes more time.  Whenever I tune one of these pianos, I can expect to add
> an extra 1/'2 hour to hour to the tuning time.  If I don't take the time
to
> work with the piano, the tuning isn't as good.  Many people probably tune
> much faster than me, and that is okay.  I just take the time I need to do
a
> nice tuning.
>
> How much experience do you have tuning?  How many pianos have you
> tuned?  With more experience, and with more tunings completed, You will
> learn what you have to do to get the piano to behave.  Tune as many pianos
> as you can, and improve upon each tuning.
>
> When you have the tuning lever on the tuning pin, which direction does the
> handle of the tuning lever point in relation to the string you are
> tuning?  90 degrees to the string?  Parallel to the string?  Be careful to
> move the tuning lever in a plane parallel to the string.  If you bend the
> tuning pin, it can "flagpole", as you have probably already
> discovered.  You can carefully "spring" the tuning pin into place and it
> will hold.  But if you bend the pin, it will "flagpole" and go back out of
> tune.
>
> >I find many notes very hard to pull in for sweet unisons.
>
> If the piano has a lot of wear on the hammers (deep grooves and flat spots
> on the crown), the tuning won't sound as good compared to a piano with
nice
> hammers.  You may be hearing a lot of hammer noise (unlevel strings,
> hammers that aren't "mated" to the strings, etc.)  Also, if the hammers
are
> very hard with a bright sound, it is harder to get a sweet sound.
>
> If this is an old piano, and the agraffes and capo bar have a lot of
string
> wear (grooves), it can be hard to tune clean unisons.  Also, if the piano
> has not been tuned in a long time, the wire may have developed bends
> (around the bridge pins, under the capo bar, and through the agraffes)
that
> resist your attempts to move the string to a new position.  The strings
> also may have developed flat spots, and it can be difficult to get the
> string to move through the agraffe because of this.
>
> If the bridge pins are loose, or if the bridge surface has grooves, clean
> unisons are more difficult to tune.
>
> Also, in the high treble, you may be hearing a lot of noise from the rear
> duplex section (the aliquots) where the strings are unmuted.  It is
helpful
> to mute off this section of the piano while tuning, and you will find that
> a lot of the false beats that you hear will go away.  Don Manino made some
> bean bags that are very good for muting off the duplex area.
>
> >I was =
> >personally taught by Randy Potter how to tune stable strings & pins but =
> >found that moving the pin in teeny notches is very hard--too high, too =
> >low, too high ...
>
> After you get the tuning pin close to the pitch you want, use steady
> pressure on the tuning lever.  You can "massage" the string into tune.  I
> have found that with old Steinway grands with rust on the strings, I
almost
> always have to approach the pitch from below.  If you try to approach
pitch
> from above, you will find that the string suddenly goes very flat.  At
> first, move the tuning pin close to pitch using very small movements of
the
> tuning lever.  But once  you are close, use a steady push on the tuning
> lever to get the final movement of the tuning pin.
>
>
> >If I got it just a hair over pitch and tried to settle everything with =
> >back pressure on the hammer, it dropped way too much.
>
>
> Approach the pitch from below.
>
> >Finally, with time =
> >running out and getting a little desperate, I started dropping pitch =
> >(about a 45 degree turn of the hammer)
>
>
> That is a LOT of tuning pin movement!  But I can relate to your
> frustration.  Next time allow more time.  Try to make very small
> movements.  Large movements make a stable tuning more difficult.
>
> >  and tuning "from the bottom" with =
> >a smooth steady pull while wanging the string pretty hard.
>
>
> YES!  Very firm blows with the hammer.  When you start breaking strings
and
> action parts, back off on your test blow a little bit!  Tune from the
bottom.
>
> >Most of the =
> >time I could stop right on pitch --even on strings I had spent WAY too =
> >long trying to tune the "normal" way.
> >
> >But I worry about how stable they are as I could not "set" the pin in =
> >the usual way.
>
> Call the customer a few days or week later to ask how they liked the
> tuning, and if there are any problems.  It may be just fine to them.  If
> they have any problems, take care of them and they will be happy.
>
>
> >Is this pretty typical Steinway?
>
> Yes, I find this pretty typical.  But, the tight tuning pins?  Not so
typical.
>
> >What about stability in these circumstances?
>
> See if you can visit the piano in a week or two and play it.  You can see
> for yourself if it is a stable tuning.
>
>
> >What hammer techniques do y'all use on the beasts?
>
>
> There is a good book on tuning lever technique by someone on list.  (Can't
> remember the name right now.)  Help me out here, people!
>
>
> >NOTE: While tuning, I was rehearsing a pretty negative inner dialog =
> >about Steinway and all of their "genuine Steinway parts;" thinking how =
> >expensive they are and how much they look like every other piano, etc. =
>
> Do what you can to get rid of the negative thoughts.  I can't do a good
> tuning if I am thinking bad about the piano, or the customer or
> whatever.  Bad thoughts = bad tuning.
>
> >BUT after I tuned it, I played it. Even for a small piano, what a =
> >beautiful, sweet sound. Oh, the subtleties ...=20
>
> That is the best part of tuning... getting to play on a freshly tuned
piano!
>
> Alan, welcome to the list.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> David A. Vanderhoofven
> Joplin, MO
>
> P.S.  I welcome any constructive criticism about this post.  Please let me
> know if I am way off base here.
>
> _______________________________________________
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