OK.. Time for my humble opinions, work-tested over thousands of pianos, and over the last 12 years for increasingly world-class and discriminating players and venues. First: thank you, Ric Moody and Ed Foote, for the lively discussion excerpted below; thanks, ric, for the excerpts. My method of tuning is the simplest, most elegant one I've found or heard of. It harks back to the earliest direction I was given as a young apprentice. It's an essential part of Virgil Smith's work. My speculation is that it was stumbled upon, or discovered, sometime in the late 18th or early 19th century. Here it is: allow all the fourths on the piano to beat wide, or sharp, in a slow, relaxed way, somewhere between .5 and 1.2 bps. That's it. That's all there is to it. If you can do that----if you can trust that it works, and train your ear to hear the slow, "true" beats of the fourth through the garbage beats, false beats, and string noise; if you can be patient, and play the interval, and wait 4 or 5 seconds for the "true, slow" beat to appear, you can tune a musical, colorful, exciting, beautifully resonant tuning every single time, and have a lot of fun doing it. As you get better at this, your ear becomes more and more precise; you start hearing everything better; your unisions get a LOT better; the piano sounds like a recording, like your earliest tonal memories of listening to pianos on record or the radio---all tuned by aural, "natural tone" tuners, if you're older than 40----your voicing skills radically improve; you feel powerful and successful because you're able to make a piano sound like the Old Masters. All the tests you've been taught work out with this system: "beatless" double, triple, quadruple, and quintuple octaves progressively faster thirds and sixths as you go up the piano contiguous thirds progressively faster tenths and seventeenths as you go up the piano all fifths narrow, or flat, and barely, s l o w l y rolling all arpeggiated major triads sound pleasing and "profoundly" in tune The sound of the piano rings, or blooms, in a way that it didn't prior to the tuning. The treble is perceived as having more sustain. The bass is perceived as having "more fundamental, more bottom end." It's almost impossible for me to believe that people weren't using this system 200 years ago, because it's so simple, so musically elegant, so precise, so easy. Imagine----there have always been gifted, passionate, musical tuners. Were they any less dedicated, intelligent, or motivated in 1810? Were their ears any less attuned to beauty and balance? I'm not a historian of temperaments and tuning, although it fascinates me. This just seems obvious to me. I've spoken about my system before on this list and created several flurries of consternation and curiosity. I would love to challenge both "master" ETD tuners and "master" HT tuners to come and hear the pianos I tune, and measure away. It would be tremendous fun. I would supply the world-class pianos, the food, and the alcohol. It would be a great party, recorded aurally and visually for posterity. Ed Foote? Ric Moody? Andre(Antares)? Jon Page? Brekne? Whoevah? How's winter where you are? Here, it's 66 degrees F., sunny, slight breeze from the ocean; it rained some last week, so everything's sparkling. Thanks, list, for the inspiration and the education. David Andersen Malibu, CA > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <A440A@aol.com> >To: <pianotech@ptg.org> >Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 8:30 AM >Subject: Re: [ctuner] Brahms & Well Temperamen > >...............................Ed Foote >> Whereas ET is much like the architect's >> drawing, WT is more akin to the painter's output. Mr. Good >prefers the >> latter. > >...............................the Moody tuner, (Dick "Richard" >Moody) ........... >> >? Don't tell that to Mr Good's tuner who tunes exactly every >time. > >........................Ed Foote >> I didn't know that. was that part of the article? If so, I >missed the >> "exact" stipulation. > >..............................R Moody.................. >It is my conclusion that Mr Good's tuner used a machine. I am >wondering if it is true. If so then then the tuning should be >exact every time. > >......................Moody wrote....................... >> > The arguments that temperament influenced music as far as >> >history is concerned is coming to a rapid close. After each >> >tuning scheme is finally translated, it is seen by tuners, >> >musicians, musicologists, and music historians, that >temperament >> >doesn't really matter unless it produces wolves. > >..............................Foote >replies............................> >> Many tuners would diagree. I have customers to whom it >matters a >great deal. > >....................................ric Moody >asks............................. >Are you saying your customers must have wolves in their >temperaments? > >............................Ed Foote continues............ (picked >out by rm) > >If you offered to tune their pianos in ET, for free, they >wouldn't let >> you do it, but will pay top dollar for a Broadwood's style of >tuning. > >.........................R Moody replies.............. >Yeah, and I had clients that would have fired me if I changed the >way I tuned for them which was ET. ET has its place, historic >temperaments has its place, "dial a tuning" also has its place. > >.......................from E Foote >>There are finer harmonic nuances than wolves. > >.........................Dick replies.................. >We better define wolves, or agree that the direction of >temperament is to produce less and less wolves. > >My point of view is that there were two directions in the >development of temperament. In the beginning it seems for some >reason that pure 3rds were desired and tuners used the theory of >the syntonic comma to establish a bearing of pure thirds. They >flattened each 5th by a quarter of that comma to get pure 3rds. >This is referred to today as Meantone which resulted in three >wolf 3rds and one very prounounced wolf 5th. It made some key >signatures very nice, but others not so nice to play in. It is my >belief that organ tuners thought pipe organs sounded better with >these flat 5ths but pure 3rds, and stringed keyboard instrument >tuners followed the directions of organ tuners. It is important to >note the tuners of stringed keyboard instruments were the >musicians themselves. > Along came musicians who wanted to play in all the keys on the >keyboard. They reasoned that if all the 5ths are flat, perhaps >some of those 5ths could be tuned pure and thus eliminate the wolf >5th at least. Thus the so called "wells" came about. It is >very difficult to flatten each 5th the same amount, and they >reasoned that if six or five 5ths were tune pure it would make >tuning much easier in addition to eliminating wolves. > As long at was realized that a series of flattened 5ths would >produce pure 3rds, it must have been realized that a series of >less flattened 5ths would make the circle of 5ths come out. This >is of course ET. How long ET has been attempted is still a >process of discovery, as more and more old and ancient tuning >instructions are being translated. > >......................Ed Foote >said................................. >>We start seeing F# used more and more as the >> temperament equalized over the late 1800's, and modern ET era >(1900 >on) music >> is all over the map, showing no preference for any key. Doesn't >this at >> least hint at something going on between temperament and >composition? > >.........................rm replies >.................................. >Yes, composers are enjoying the freedom of ET. > >....................ric also wrote..................in a previous >post.................. >> >When the so called Wells are put up against ET no one can tell >the >> difference. >> >.......................................Ed >replies....................................... > >> Ric, I gotta disagree here. In comparisons between the two >in many >PTG venues, non-Et was distinctly preferred over a >state-of-the-art ET. >In my classes, after 90 minutes of >listening to a WT, the previously >accepted ET sounds VERY >different, (and "shallow" according to more >than a few remarks). >> In my lab at Vanderbilt, no one is left unstruck by the >difference between >an ET and a Broadwood tuning! > > >........................ric >moody....replies............................................ > >OK but play two recordings and ask the listeners to pick out >which is ET and which is not. Actually for fair scientific >analysis play 10 recordings of something other than ET and 10 >recordings of ET and see how many listeners to pick out ET from >non ET. The only quibble might be is if the choice of "can't >tell the difference" appears on the quiz. Its like asking piano >technicians to listen to recordings and tell which is the SD 10 >from the SnS D. It can't be done. > We know a client may extol a tuning, I have had one or two do >so, and it has been ET. I am sure I could tune a Montal ET and >get the same praise... from you even. !! in a blind test!!!. (yes >this is a challange) I would like to say the same for any of the >historical tunings such as from Werkmeister, or Kirnberger or >Marpurg but the aural instuctions have not been translated into >English. > > > >> >...................................> Ric again >rote............................. >> >Now we hear that Edwin Good says he can. So if he can >demonstrate >> >he can tell the difference between an ET and the Well he >prefers, >> >I will gladly learn to tune the well he prefers because all >> >musicians would want to hear a "rich lively tone" in their >freshly >> >tuned pianos. >> >> Great! Now you are getting the idea. Edwin Good is >already >> demonstrating this, with his wallet! And so are many other >customers, >they wouldn't dream of letting an ET-only tuner tune >their piano because they do not want an ET! > >...............ric of course is skeptical and says...... > > If Edwin Good can pick out a non ET tuning from ET in a blind >listening I will believe you. Until then it is only puff the magic >dragon. > > > >...............................Ed writes >>My point is that a tech may be able to earn more money if they >can tune in a variety of ways and understand the implications >well enough to create a market for themselves. I have seen this >happen in two areas already, the WT tuner is gradually acquiring >more and more of the discriminating customers. An >analogy would be that we can sell more fruit if we have apples and >oranges >> and bananas than if we only have apples. > >.......................ric >replies...............puff........................... > >................Ed....from the last post...................... > >> I wrote: >> >> Simply switching temperaments doesn't automatically >"color" >> > the music to its optimum. >> >> Ric answers: >> >Ah the myth of "color" caused by temperament. Hmmm looks >like >> > you are now saying it (temperament) doesn't color >> >music............. > >> That is not what I said at all. Lemme try again: I said >SWITCHING >> temperaments doesn't automatically color music to its OPTIMUM ! >.Temperaments color music, switching them may or may not make an >improvement for a particular piece or composer, or era. > >..................ric replies............... > Ok so you say "Temperaments color music" but SWITCHING >temperaments doesn't automatically color music to its OPTIMUM! >Well then, what temperament does color music to its optimum?. Can >you explain to musicians and musiciolgoist and music historians >how "Temperaments color music"? Is it pure 5ths, and wider 3rds? >Is it narrow 5ths and purer 3rds. Where is there color and where >is there not color? If ET is not color, what is color? Can you >tell us how to tune to get back the color that is not in ET? >..................PUFF I say....................... > >.....................ric rote............................. >>What is the big deal between the "typical Victorian tunings" >(which was >never practiced, as research is revealing) vs a sloppy ET > >...........Ed asks....... >> What research is revealing a lack of practise? Do you have >>something more plausible than Jorgensen's interpretation of >Ellis's >documentation? if so, I would like to read it. > >..............ric the student of history replies. >Ellis's documentations are written in English by himself. They >are in the Dover editon of Herman Helmnoltz, "Sensation of Tone" > And yes there is a mistake of reference by Jorgensen that he >gave in the Journal article. > > > >...............Ed wrote.................................. >>Even the 1885 tunings vary ET in >> the same general form,which is the form of all the earlier WT's. >This isn't >> the result of coincidental error. > >..........................ric asks.................. > >what form is this? and what is coincidential >error?................ > >> > The modern machines with theoretical offsets will >> > give a consistent temperament, but compare that with results >from >> > the original directions that guided the ear. >> >> I have, and was surprised how close the aural WT's are to >the mechanical >> offsets from ET on good piano scales. In fact, if you really >work at a >> Kirnberger or Young, you can become quite consistant. I can >only imagine >> the really good tuners of 1840 were able to achieve consistant >results. > >.....................ric asks............................ > >the whole enquiry is to find out which temperament the "really >good tuners of 1840" used to acheive "consistant results". Was it >the Kirnberger or the Young? Or did they know both? and were >consistant in two? What are the the original directions? >> >> Ric again: >> >I think you will >> > find, the aural tunings will give much more musical pleasure, >> > especially the ET of Claude Montal of 1836. >> >> Nope, not enough color... >> >> Ed Foote RPT > > >Ed, I would like to ask how you can say , "Nope, not enough >color..." and ask if you have tuned according to Montal's >instructions and if so how does the music sound. Say of Chopin >Preludes or Waltz...?? >I have tuned according to Montal's instructions and I invite you >to play any Chopin or Beethoven or any music you prefer on my >Montal or anyone's Montal. I have tuned according to Montal's >directions and and I am amzed at the ET that comes out. > >Richard Moody
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