winding down on temperaments

[A440A@AOL.COM]

Greetings, 
(the swordsmen are on the staircase, soon enough, one of us will leap for the 
chandelier......)

 I wrote: 
<<  I expect modulation to create a change of musical tension.


Howard writes: 

**You expect it because that's what happens with HT's. 

Umm,  I think it happens regardless of tuning.  I hear musical tension 
changing in performances of the same music in ET, it just feels like a 
stronger effect when the levels of consonance change also,(there are 
biological reasons for this to be so). 

Howard writes:
>> Classical composers

did not necessarily expect it otherwise they would not have modulated

similarly as per Sonata form in their orchestral works where temperament

does not play a part.<<

   This is an unsupported inference.  "did not necessarily" is scant logic to 
build a premise on.  Is it not possible that the keyboard was already 
exerting an influence on orchestral composition?  I think that it is, since 
the keyboard was the only instrument capable of providing a composer both 
melody and accompaniment.   
 

**Classical composers followed a fairly strict pattern of modulation. Their

choice was not arbitrary and related to tension as you suggest. .<< 

       Yes, however, the choice of key determined where the "starting point" 
was, thus, all moves to the sub-dominant,tonic, dominant,etc.  would produce 
different changes, DEPENDING on the key selected to write the sonata in. 


>>In ET, the same level of dissonance exists in all

keys, so you may be in a new place, but the harmonic background is still the

same.  Sorta like getting off the train in the exact same place you left.

 
Howard responds:

>>There is nothing wrong with getting off the train in the same place after an

exciting trip. In addition, a train ride can take you through exciting

places and get you to an equally restful new place and offer a refreshing

new sight/site. This is exactly what happens in the sonata when going from C

to G, or Bb to F etc.<< 

   Would that new place be as "restful" if everything preceding it had been 
the same?  or would a few lions and tigers, forest fires and earthquakes 
along the way make ones arrival at the  depot by the serene lake(with the 
swans swimming by the gazebo) more of a welcome relief for its 'restfulness"? 
 


When I wrote: 
|> If there is no difference between keys, then why not

compose everything in the easiest key to play (making say, B the tonic,

since it is "hand friendly",) and then modulating through the normal sonata 
form

changes.

   

Howard writes;
*Don't be mislead into thinking that B is the easiest key for a pianist

simply because the *scale* of B major is very hand friendly.

    I am not a pianist, so my consideration of the key's "hand-friendliness" 
comes from asking pianists.  If they are misleading me, so be it.  


Me again:
> So what does modulation do? It seems that when composers modulated

from one key to another, they were changing the musical tension of the music.


***That is your assumption that I do not necessarily agree with. There is no

measurable increase in tension of orchestral pieces and they followed the

same classical rules as piano works.<< 

   If you are saying that orchestras play everything in equal temperament, 
not sharpening that B when in the key of C, or flattening that Bb when they 
are in the key of Gm, then we have a huge divergence of experience.  The 
orchestras I have listened to and measured change their intonation on a per 
key basis, and though there is no "temperament' involved, the players 
certainly regard the musical "feeling" of different keys as a foregone 
conclusion.  Just ask them if different keys have different "feelings".  Of 
course the string players face the phenomenom of open strings, etc.  but that 
is not the whole picture.  

 

>>Thus my contention that the emotional effects are heightened in WT.  This 
is also the major response I have gotten from pianists.


**I hope you relate to your pianists the response you are getting from me

and many other musicians who are equally qualified to make musical judgments

to the contrary.>>

   I relate nothing of the sort to musicians. All that would do would be to 
influence them one way or another.  I think that the feedback I get is far 
more valid if I say as little as possible and let the sound of the 
well-tempered piano do the work.  
   We are speaking of ineffable things when we talk of emotional response.  
Trying to convince a pianist that one or another tuning is good or bad clouds 
the issue.  It is far more valuable to hear their response to the sound of 
the instrument rather than what the technical community might think.  I have 
learned not to talk about the difference until after the musical impression 
is made, it removes the "sales pitch" from the discovery process.  
      All these words we are using here are between us mechanics, unless the 
pianist is also a technician, their musical impression is the thing of value 
and I don't want to compromise that by building a case one way or another.  
When they say "Wow, what the hell is this?"  I AM ready to talk about it.  
   I hope this debate will be of value to the technicians that may want to 
explore.  It may also provide vicarious thrills to those that dare not leave 
the safety of home.  That it makes me appear ludicrous to those that have 
tried the temperaments and failed to find appreciative audiences is a price I 
will just have to accept. 
Thanks for  the dialogue, Howard. 
Best regards to all,
Ed