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----- Original Message -----=20
From: Tom Servinsky=20
To: pianotech@ptg.org=20
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 1:58 AM
Subject: Re: more on this temperament tangent
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Billbrpt@AOL.COM=20
To: pianotech@ptg.org=20
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: more on this temperament tangent
In a message dated 11/2/01 8:15:08 AM Central Standard Time, =
Tvak@AOL.COM=20
writes:=20
Orchestral music is played in just intonation. Each player =
constantly tunes=20
his instrument adjusting each note.=20
Let me zip up my flame suit first...there!
If you agree to the Harvard Music Dictionary definition of Just =
Intonation as the 3rd and 5ths, and octaves being tuned pure, the basis =
for orchestra tuning is strongly influenced byJust Intonation. =
Obviously, orchestras don't embrace Just Intonation to the degree a =
keyboard would be tuned, but they do have some similarities in that the =
agreed tuning of those intervals (3rd, 5th, and octave) remains pure.
The basic premise for classical and modern orchestra interval tuning =
still encourages the pureness of the 3rd, 5ths, and octave. There are =
exceptions to that rule, but in general, that is the agreed tuning of =
those intervals. Is that Just Intonation? Well, yes, sort of.
Is it grounds for a good arguement? If you abide by the rules of =
Just Intonation compared to the agreed tuning acceptance of the 3rd, =
5th, and octaves in orchestra use...the argument exists. Does vibrato =
affect the purity? Of course.=20
Do players "bend " the notes to fit the pitch so the interval remains =
in the pure state?=20
Without question.
Regardless of the work, listen to a Verdi opera, Rossini overture, =
or Stravinksy's Firebird, and pay close attention to the way the =
orchestra players tune those described intervals. Better yet, try =
zeroing in on , say the principle oboe player, and listen carefully to =
how he approaches and resolves those intervals. Influences of Just =
Intonation are throughout. As a performer in the wind section, play a =
beating 3rd in a slow movement you might as well kiss your job good bye. =
If 2 clarinets are playing in octaves, they better be absolutely =
pure.Same with the 3rds or 5ths.
Now the other side of the argument it can be stated loud and clear if =
Just Intonation is used, and if you follow the complete rules of Just =
Intonation as it relates to temperament ,it also states that G# and Ab =
will end up sounding 2 different pitches. Modulation would also be =
impossible. Scale patterns would be uneven.
And that's where the similarites stop. Orchestra tuning is unique =
because it does use the 3rd,5th, and octaves as pure intervals, but =
remains in a flexible state to accomodate key change, where a keyboard =
"Just Intonation" tuning is stuck in one mode with gross limitations =
galore.
If you want to hear orchestras which don't prescibe to this acceptance =
to purity, listen to most Junior High Orchestras, or many community =
orchestras with novice players, where the players haven't developed the =
sensitvity and flexibility to pitch and interval understanding. Then =
you'll treated to tempered intervals throughout, unintentionally.
Temperament influencing composers....
Undoubtebly,composers have been and will always be influenced by =
temperament. Most have been conditioned by the very fact that most =
write their works from the keyboard. Not necessarily for the keyboard, =
but through the keyboard. Think of the1000's of hrs. spent composing a =
major symphony while slaving over a pianoforte tuned in WT, or today on =
a Steinway D tuned in ET. The examples are too obvious where temperament =
of the day influenced the style of writing. It's analogus to computers =
and software programers. Programers are influenced and restricted by the =
operating system of that computer's system. Someone working with Windows =
will obviously be influenced the constraints and characteristics of that =
system. Someone working with DOS, MAC systems will be conditioned =
differently.
Composers living during the Baroque period were obviously influenced =
by the early temperaments as was Gershwin when writing his many great =
works.
=20
> Not in the minds of >composers. When a composer writes an=20
>orchestral piece, he thinks in just >intonation. =20
Well, then you would have to have an additional fingering for G# and =
Ab, if you follow the notion the composer is thinking in complete Just =
Intonation. Those would be 2 different pitches. Scale patterns would =
also be modified.
"Temperament exists only on the keyboard"
Let's word that differently...
"Temperament tuning only exists on the stringed keyboard." .... Back =
to the Harvard Music Dictionary
Temperament..."General designation for various systems of tuning in =
which the intervals are tempered, i.e., they deviate from the =
accoustically correct intervals of the Pythagorean scale and of Just =
Intonation"
Orchestras do not temper those intervals. But composers do write with =
respect and regard to temperament. All the great composers we have been =
eluding to were all influenced and conditioned through the effects of =
keyboard temperament. These composers were extreme cases of pure genius =
at work. They had an incredible amt.of understanding and sensitivity =
towards the pros and cons of temperament, key color, and even a thorough =
understanding for the instruments they were writing for. We haven't even =
begun to dive into the problems each instrument brings to the table. Yet =
these composers were able to work around a lot of hazzards and find the =
inner most beauty and present it as a gift of pure delight. I often =
wonder what if Mozart would have wrote differently if he was living =
today. Better yet, what if he could have time traveled ahead 300 yrs. =
and had the opportunity to experience writing music with different =
temperaments and modern instruments. What if could have looked back and =
wanted to change what he had written?
This would make for an excellent forum at next year's convention in =
Chicago. It sounds like there's some real passion from many on this =
subject.
Tom Servinsky,RPT
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