pianotech-digest wrote: > pianotech-digest Saturday, January 13 2001 Volume 2001 : Number 056 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 17:18:09 +0000 > From: Barrie Heaton <Piano@a440.co.uk> > Subject: Re: Who needs piano technicians? Duffer? > > In article <3A606CAA.F58C2739@grieg.uib.no>, Richard Brekne > <Richard.Brekne@grieg.uib.no> writes > > > > > >Barrie Heaton wrote: > > > >> In my area I cover 25 miles there are aprox 50 + tuners of which only 8 > >> are members. In Blackburn/ Darwen were I live pop 156,000 there are 5 > >> tuners 2 are members, we all have plenty of work the 3 who don't belong > >> 3 manly work for the local shops. > >> > >> Barrie, > >> > > > >Just out of curiosity... what criteria have you used to establish that there are "50 > >+ tuners" in the area you refer to above ? > > > > Advertisements placed in YP, TL and newspapers and knowing quite a few > of the local tuners there could be more as not all advertise. > > Barrie, > > - -- > Barrie Heaton PGP key on request http://www.a440.co.uk/ > AcryliKey Ivory Repair System UK © http://www.acrylikey.co.uk/ > The U.K. Piano Page © http://www.uk-piano.org/ > Home to the UK Piano Industry > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 18:24:53 +0100 > From: Richard Brekne <Richard.Brekne@grieg.uib.no> > Subject: Re: The Littlest Firefighter:OT > > - --------------A2F3B7F91D60C03D25404D28 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Nice story Kev.. neat that you didnt blow up the house while we > were away... :) > > Cant see any reason for a flame suit here... would that we could > all live up to the moral of this story...all the time.. eh ? > > "Kevin E. Ramsey" wrote: > > > .....FRIEND. > > _________________________________________________________________Kevin > > E. Ramsey, R.P.T. > > ramsey@extremezone.com > > - -- > Richard Brekne > RPT, N.P.T.F. > Bergen, Norway > mailto:Richard.Brekne@grieg.uib.no > > - --------------A2F3B7F91D60C03D25404D28 > Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> > <html> > <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> > Nice story Kev.. neat that you didnt blow up the house while we were away... > :) > <p>Cant see any reason for a flame suit here... would that we could all > live up to the moral of this story...all the time.. eh ? > <p>"Kevin E. Ramsey" wrote: > <blockquote TYPE=CITE><font face="Times New Roman"><font size=+0>.....FRIEND. > _________________________________________________________________</font></font>Kevin > E. Ramsey, R.P.T. > <br><a href="mailto:ramsey@extremezone.com">ramsey@extremezone.com</a></blockquote> > > <p>-- > <br>Richard Brekne > <br>RPT, N.P.T.F. > <br>Bergen, Norway > <br><A HREF="mailto:Richard.Brekne@grieg.uib.no">mailto:Richard.Brekne@grieg.uib.no</A> > <br> > </body> > </html> > > - --------------A2F3B7F91D60C03D25404D28-- > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 11:40:23 -0600 > From: jolly roger <baldyam@sk.sympatico.ca> > Subject: Re: Yamaha C7 Pinblock Fit > > At 07:10 AM 1/13/01 -0600, you wrote: > >Roger, > > > >Thanks for the additional comments. If this in fact turns out to be the > >problem, may we contact you for a more detailed description of the > >procedure? > > > >Todd > > Hi Ric, > Let me know if I can be any help. But if this should be the > case and you can substantiate the two week tunings over a long period. It > would be worth talking to Bill Brandom of Yamaha USA. > They can be extremely helpful, plus they may help out with some partial > payment or technical assistance, if they feel the piano failed during the > warranty period. I have known them to extend a warranty in special cases. > Never know unless you ask. > Regards Roger > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 09:52:12 -0800 > From: "pianolover 88" <pianolover88@hotmail.com> > Subject: tuning time > > I overheard a customer talking on the phone recently, saying "i didn't > realize that tuning takes so long." I had been working on her piano, at that > point, for less than 25 minutes!! In fact, the whole job took about 65 > minutes, from "drive up" to Drive away...and I should mention that I also > did a quick Pitch raise! > So i thought it would be a great time, before I left, to educate my customer > just a tad. While i was packing things up, I took the opportunity to say the > following: "your piano has roughly 240 pins (Not quite that many, but for > easy math...as in 240 minutes= 4 hours) and because i had to tune your piano > TWICE, we double that to 480. Each one of These 240 tuning pins hold string > tension up to 170 lbs, and require the utmost in small, precision movements > to get the piano in tune..and STAY there. If a tuner were to spend just 1 > minute on each pin, (tuning twice) it would take about EIGHT HOURS to finish > the job! So, in order for me to have finished TWO tunings in just over an > hour, that means I spent only about 1/8th that amount of time, or about 7.5 > seconds PER PIN! That includes setting the temperament AND perfecting > unisons. She was duly impressed, and thanked me for taking time to explain > the process. > > Terry Peterson > Associate Member PTG > Los Angeles, CA > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 17:53:24 +0000 > From: Barrie Heaton <Piano@a440.co.uk> > Subject: Re: Who needs piano technicians? Duffer? > > In article <3A606BA6.C4ADA19F@grieg.uib.no>, Richard Brekne > <Richard.Brekne@grieg.uib.no> writes > > > >Yes...Barrie... I know this... exactly what I said... we ALL know this.. but hey... thats > >a > >different subject matter then the one she brought up. I mean... I aggree with your > >paragraph... it just doesnt have anything at all to do with what she her posting was > >about. > > Yes it does just because some one becomes member does not make them a > better tech, unless they take part in what is on offer, have 100% of > the PTG members taken a class of some sort. So unless you educate the > not so educated tuner they will make mistakes, calling them duffers > because they are not member or emptying that if you don't join you will > never became a better tech or it's your duty to become a member if you > are a tech of any standing. Only sends out the wrong messages to Techs > who have not had the befit of good training and could benefit from the > education in taking part in classes. Education should be open to all > member or not this list is a fine example. > > - -- > Barrie Heaton PGP key on request http://www.a440.co.uk/ > AcryliKey Ivory Repair System UK © http://www.acrylikey.co.uk/ > The U.K. Piano Page © http://www.uk-piano.org/ > Home to the UK Piano Industry > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 11:00:10 -0700 > From: John Musselwhite <john@musselwhite.com> > Subject: Re: How to go adjusting that fly in the window... > > At 05:29 PM 1/12/2001 -0500, Brian wrote: > > >On these little buggers, the hammer flange rail comes way down in front of > >the regulating screws, and it's a real pain trying to adjust these things. > >I was able to do it, but it wasn't all that easy. I can imagine with some > >trepidation the process of setting the whole line of 88. > > > >Any little secrets anyone has up their sleeve? other than a large bottle of > >'happy pills'? <grin> > > I have two old regulating screwdrivers with their own handles and very thin > shafts. Both end in very small tips that are not much bigger then the screw > head they're supposed to grab. One of them (with a large handle) may be the > Yamaha tool. The other belonged to my grandfather and is probably 80 years > old. Both work well, though the older tool is better balanced. > > John > John Musselwhite, RPT - Calgary, Alberta Canada > http://www.musselwhite.com http://canadianpianopage.com/calgary > email: john@musselwhite.com http://www.mp3.com/fatbottom > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 11:13:20 -0700 > From: John Musselwhite <john@musselwhite.com> > Subject: Re: source for maroon felt? > > At 10:39 AM 1/13/2001 -0500, Ed Foote wrote: > > > Billbrpt writes: > ><< It would seem to me that you could change red felt to > >maroon by using some shade of blue. A box of rit dye doesn't cost much.>> > > > >Greetings, > > I did this on my first Steinway rebuild. It had to be a white piano,(the > >original case was bookmatched burl walnut, but had been refinished to a > >white without any primer/clear coat. When stripped, it was dotted with white > >in all the pores! A disgrace, but what could I do.? The new buyer wanted a > >white piano, also. ) > > The felt needed to be green so I dyed it with RIT. John Musselwhite? > >That is Ray Griff's piano. How is the color holding up? > > The colour is fine, Ed. If it's fading at all it's doing it consistently. I > was curious as to how you managed to get green felt! It's really quite > striking in a white piano! > > John > > ... NEWS FLASH: Red and blue ships collide - Sailors marooned! > > John Musselwhite, RPT - Calgary, Alberta Canada > http://www.musselwhite.com http://canadianpianopage.com/calgary > email: john@musselwhite.com http://www.mp3.com/fatbottom > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 11:22:51 -0700 > From: John Musselwhite <john@musselwhite.com> > Subject: Re: Who needs,,,,,,,,,, > > At 09:33 PM 1/11/2001 -0700, Kevin R. wrote: > > >I agree, they are indeed wonderful instruments, but why are they so in need > >of "finishing?" > > Donning my flamesuit as I wax philosophical, I can think of several > reasons. When I refer to "finishing" I mean voicing in particular as well > as regulating and polishing of the case. The hammers usually come soft for > a reason. > > 1) If they finished the piano properly then customizing it for the > purchaser again afterwards could be more difficult and would be a waste of > time, effort and money. The dealer's technician is expected to do the last > bits for the purchaser. > 2) The pianos are sent from a very old and traditional factory in New York > City. If they finished them there, by the time they got to the dealer's > floor in Albuquerque they'd have to be finished again anyway due to climate > changes. > 3) The final purchaser gets more of the feeling that they've bought > something that can be set up "just for them" rather than to the lowest > common denominator, which is "factory specifications". > > In the old days and to some extent now, when the wealthy bought a Rolls > Royce, they bought a raw chassis and had it finished for their tastes. When > they wanted a mansion they built a new one so it would be "theirs". If they > wanted a suit of clothes they had it custom tailored rather than buying one > off the rack. Even if they wanted their own writing instrument they'd pay > thousands of dollars for a Waterman fountain pen that adapts to their own > particular writing style rather than just a Cross. > > In some respects the Steinway piano is like that. The factory does all the > work necessary (hopefully!) to supply us with a "raw" piano that can then > be customized to the owner's needs. Being hand-made they are all different > in some way and like people, some have more potential than others and the > potential in some instruments is never realized at all. People who are used > to something working properly "right out of the box" are bound to be > disappointed with them that way and if I may say so, they should stick with > the select hardwood-rimmed Asian pianos, expecting to replace them when > they lose their precision just like they do their used cars. > > At best this means that Steinway has given us durable, traditional and > fairly "standard" pianos that will remain in extreme service (or pampered > luxury) and retain their value for a great many years, often outliving > their original owners before they require rebuilding. At worst it means > that the company has supplied and is supplying current and future > rebuilders with viable carcasses that they can turn into magnificent > instruments once again. Either way, piano technicians come out ahead as > do, hopefully, the owners. The only loser is the factory, actually. > > I hope that answers the question. If not, the short version is that they > are hand-built instruments constructed mostly after a traditional fashion > using traditional materials and they're all a little bit different. To the > technician and to some extent the owner, it means that in a new piano *you* > have control over the growth of the last bit of the piano's potential > rather than it being realized in a modern computer controlled factory > somewhere just like the last one that rolled off the assembly line. That > should be a *good* thing, not something to complain about. > > John > > John Musselwhite, RPT - Calgary, Alberta Canada > http://www.musselwhite.com http://canadianpianopage.com/calgary > email: john@musselwhite.com http://www.mp3.com/fatbottom > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 12:35:32 -0600 > From: Ron Nossaman <RNossaman@KSCABLE.com> > Subject: Re: Results are In! Re: moisture in wool or wood. > > >Not meaning to be picky... grin.. but I will... how does Terrys experiment > >yeild > >any information about the amount of compression that would be exerted on the > >centerpin ? I mean the drill bit is really hard and aint going nowhere... a > >felt > >bushing would give a bit, and I dont think we are exactly clear on just how > >much > >pressure it takes to cause a centerpin to get sluggish. > > > >Richard Brekne > > Nonsense! Of course you're meaning to be picky, Richard. > > My point was that it doesn't take much of an interference fit with hard > maple to where you couldn't get the rod in at all by hand, so the hole > didn't get all that much smaller, or possibly didn't remain round. I > assumed that the couple of thousandths" of size decrease wouldn't make a > heck of a lot of difference to the pin tightness because the bushing cloth > compresses, especially if it was just out of roundness of the hole. Since > Jim hasn't yet posted his results from soaking bushing cloth, and no one > else has apparently even gotten any wet, I spent the last hour in the shop > exploring this a little from the bushing cloth side. > > Using a dial indicator snap gauge I put together a while back for measuring > string diameters quickly in the piano, I clamped it in the vise, and cut > some short pieces of bushing cloth to test. I left the cloth pieces in > place in the gauge, without disturbing it other than wetting it with a mild > detergent solution, through each test trial. > > Unweighted, with just the gauge spring clamping the cloth, the initial dry > measurement was 0.0355". Wet, after 5 minutes, it measured 0.0375", for an > expansion of 0.002". > > Weighted with 150grams, dry measurement was 0.034". Wet, after five > minutes, it measured 0.0355", expanding 0.0015". > > Weighted with 211g, dry measurement was 0.0338". Wet, after five minutes, > it measured 0.035", expanding 0.0013". > > Weighted with 211g, double thickness, dry measurement was 0.067". Wet, > after five minutes, it measured 0.0698", expanding 0.0028". > > Note the relative correlation to initial compression by the weight, and > expansion. Note that the expansion is between 3.5% and 4.5% of the > compressed thickness in all cases. I would expect the expansion percentages > to change with different batches and densities of cloth. Nevertheless, this > would seem to indicate that bushing cloth expands against and > proportionally to resistance. > > Now you tell me how Terry's test tells us what we need to know about the > size and shape of the hole, and I'll explain to you how it fits with my > results to explain center pins tightening with humidity increases, if you > really think it's necessary at that point. > > Ron N > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 12:48:54 -0600 > From: Ron Nossaman <RNossaman@KSCABLE.com> > Subject: Re: Results are In! Re: moisture in wool or wood. > > > My first trial there was to simply see whether a flange hole > >got bigger or smaller with increased humidity/moisture content. It is clear > >to me, contrary to apparent popular belief, that a hole in a flange > >decreases in diameter with increased humidity/moisture content. > > > >Terry Farrell > > That's an assumption that's not necessarily supportable by the experiment. > Did the hole get smaller, or narrower and oval? How can you tell if the > average diameter of the hole is smaller or larger by testing the fit of a > round rod? It's the average diameter that has the effect of compressing the > bushing cloth against the center pin, not the narrowest spot, which your > test may be indicating. Since the rest of the hole could still be wider > than the rod, or not, what has it told us? > > > Ron N > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 13:58:17 EST > From: A440A@AOL.COM > Subject: Re: Who needs,,,,,,,,,, > > Inre unfinished Steinways, John writes: > > <<it means that in a new piano *you* > have control over the growth of the last bit of the piano's potential > rather than it being realized in a modern computer controlled factory > somewhere just like the last one that rolled off the assembly line. That > should be a *good* thing, not something to complain about.>> > > Greetings, > That doesn't explain why the hammershank traveling is so poor, or why the > damperwires are so unpolished that they make as much noise as old trichord > felt, or damperwires that are pressing very firmly against one side or other > of the guidebushings. It also doesn't explain why there are so often loose > pins in the bridge,(I've learned to cure false beats here), or why the key > bushing can be erratic. > There is little reason to send a piano out with glide-bolts all over the > place, or the front-pins nicked by the spacing tool of an ignorant or > careless worker. > All these things create damage that isn't apparent at first, but after > some considerable play, what results is damaged hammerflange bushing, damper > guide rails that are worn on one side,(slowly ruining the damper wedges). > Quality control costs money, and it seems that there is a lot of trading > on the name that is going on in New York. > Regards, > Ed Foote RPT > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:32:40 -0500 > From: bases-loaded@juno.com > Subject: Re: Results are In! Re: moisture in wool or wood. > > On Sat, 13 Jan 2001 11:07:14 -0500 "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com> > writes: > >It is clear to me, contrary to apparent popular belief, that a hole in a > flange > > decreases in diameter with increased humidity/moisture content. > > > > Terry Farrell > > Piano Tuning & Service > > Tampa, Florida > > mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com > > Hi Terry - > > Thank you for confirming what has seemed right to me and what I've been > telling all of my customers for 23 years! > > Mark Potter > bases-loaded@juno.com > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 13:25:40 -0800 > From: "Erwinpiano" <Erwinpiano@email.msn.com> > Subject: Panel compression rib curvatures e.t.c. > > Hi Ron > Thanks for the post.Out her in the wild west our Indians ahem ( native > americans) are largley tame and on tribal lands and we no longer shoot at > each other .Us calif.natives,haven,t had much good surfing weather so we > stay in the shop .Isolated no more I,m discovering that people in various > locations working somewhat independently have devolped soundbd. designs and > rib > structuring designs that have more similar characteristics than disimilar > and all or most all no longer opt for pure comps. crowning .As to your > comments on varying rib curvatures I also have developed similar curve > variations and have gone so far as to log some of the specs. enough times so > as to have predictable repeatable outcomes .I.E. measuring the radius at > each rib and at certain conditions of relative humidity and also before and > after installation.I,m sure every rebuilder goes thru an evolutionary > devolpment period until the distillation of all that becomes a standard > practise of which the quality of work and satisfaction with the sound lends > itself to confidence for self and clients.Anyway each of us has doubtless > expeirimented with different types of spruce panels and used every > concievable kind of material for ribs ( or not yet anyway)and or more than > one vartiety of wood for ribs in a given board (I have)and may have opinons > worth sharing as to the results ,be they objective or subjective I don,t > care !O.K. My confesson if you haven,t already figured it out is that I,m > knew to the list and as of dec.00 and have probably missed out on all this > great discussion .To top it all off Im, having to learn to type and push > buttons but this is a great medium!So anyway, in my particular > expierimentation Ive found that ,when using sitka panels a combinatiun of > ribs has turned out to work really well for me .In that I,m trying to > achieve max. sustain and power (who Is,nt)Using sitka ribs up to and > including the longest rib in the largest part of the belly and then > switching to sugar pine has really provided wonderful power and long sustain > especially up in the money notes ,i.e. octave 6ish Have done this on several > stwy 6ft 2,s with very satisfying results.Also on Stwy m,sI was trying to > avoid an earlier problem with octave 6 being stingy and this really helped.I > believe the lighter weight and stiffness factors of sugar pine are not a > detriment to support in the treble because I,m thinking the stiffness for > support is there via the ribs themselves getting shorter and shorter. It > does seem to make for good impedance match .Anyone have any thoughts or > similar ideas to kick around.Or did I miss all that already.? Dale Erwin > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 13:26:03 -0800 > From: "Erwinpiano" <Erwinpiano@email.msn.com> > Subject: Re: Results are In! Re: moisture in wool or wood. > > - ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ron Nossaman" <RNossaman@KSCABLE.com> > To: <pianotech@ptg.org> > Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 10:48 AM > Subject: Re: Results are In! Re: moisture in wool or wood. > > > > My first trial there was to simply see whether a flange hole > > >got bigger or smaller with increased humidity/moisture content. It is > clear > > >to me, contrary to apparent popular belief, that a hole in a flange > > >decreases in diameter with increased humidity/moisture content. > > > > > >Terry Farrell > > > > That's an assumption that's not necessarily supportable by the experiment. > > Did the hole get smaller, or narrower and oval? How can you tell if the > > average diameter of the hole is smaller or larger by testing the fit of a > > round rod? It's the average diameter that has the effect of compressing > the > > bushing cloth against the center pin, not the narrowest spot, which your > > test may be indicating. Since the rest of the hole could still be wider > > than the rod, or not, what has it told us? > > > > > > Ron N > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 17:06:11 -0600 > From: Leslie W Bartlett <lesbart1@juno.com> > Subject: Ronald Sanford > > I just returned from the Memorial Service for Ronald Sanford, who passed > away last Wednesday in his home, very unexpectedly. The PTG has lost one > of the truly great men with the passing of Ronald. > > For those who have known him, we are attempting to put together a scrap > of anecdotes, memories, reflections, and notes of appreciation for help > he has offered so many struggling technicians. This will be presented to > Merle within the next couple of months. > > Please send any thoughts or notes to Ronnie Ip <ronnieip@yahoo.com>, or > to myself through the above e-mail address with "Ronald Sanford" in the > subject line, or to > my home address > 16315 Laluna Drive > Houston, TX 77083 > > Thanks > Les Bartlett > Houston chapter > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 18:03:09 EST > From: JIMRPT@AOL.COM > Subject: Re: Re: Results are In! Re: moisture in wool or wood. > > Ron wrote: > > Yep that's right but I haven't been slacking off......I just haven't been > able to get the results to come out the way I want them too yet! :-) > > Actually one thing is leading to another and I am repeating each test three > times with three different samples of the same cloth, i.e. bushing, frontrail > and back rail. Also because of the flange quotient involved I have > constructed some flanges from different materials and am measuring the > resistance in various stages.............I haven't forgotten about it...... I > am still working ....hopefully I will have some definitive results/answers > before too long. > Jim Bryant (FL) > > ------------------------------ > > End of pianotech-digest V2001 #56 > *********************************
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