in tune, perfection

[Farrell]

No answers from me, just a related observation and another question.

I used to do some tuning work for a local shady dealer. The guy could play
the piano reasonably well - at least the several songs in his repertoire.
Some 90% of the folks that walk in the store do not play the piano. This
salesman could make the poorly tuned $900 spinet (read worth $150) sound
nearly as good as the new 180 cm grand - certainly the inexperience ears
would not hear much difference (which he would do if his analysis told him
this was a ....... used spinet customer). Hey, why spend $18,000 when you
can get the same thing in a smaller package for $900!

My son plays clarinet in his junior high band. I have to agree with: "In a
junior high orchestra or band, they may at times be out of tune with each
other as much as almost a half-step (100 cents)..." I have often wondered,
in-tunewise, how do you get from this to the local professional symphony
orchestra? Interesting topic you have brought up.

Terry Farrell

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Nereson" <dnereson@dimensional.com>
To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 7:18 AM
Subject: in tune, perfection


>
> << . . . . Are all the violins in a symphony at any time exactly in tune,
or
> is the fact that there is some difference, which produces a chorus effect,
> desireable for producing a complex wave, therby making a bigger overall
> effect.
>  ( 40 piece choir, also ). . . .>>
> . . . . >>--Carl Teplitski >>
>
> No, all the violins, nor all the other instruments in the symphony, are
not
> exactly in tune with each other at any given time.  In a junior high
> orchestra or band, they may at times be out of tune with each other as
much
> as almost a half-step (100 cents), at least when first sight-reading or
> learning a piece.  One would think that in a professional symphony, they'd
> be within, say, 5 or 10 cents, but
>
>    << Pitch during intense and/or wide vibrato
>    << is on the order of +/- 20 cents.  This is analogous to the very
rapid
>    << beating of 3rds & 6ths found in the remote keys of any Cycle of 5ths
>     <<based temperament.
>         --Bill Bremmer>>
>
> as a string player, I can assure you they're never that close, yet the
music
> still sounds fine, which is why I question some of this hair-splitting
over
> a few tenths of a cent, or even a cent or two.  I maintain that the
average
> listener just doesn't detect these small differences, especially if the
> piano is not playing solo.  I'm not advocating bad tuning -- just
wondering
> how many people even notice that anything sounds "sour" until a unison
> (between two instruments) or even an octave, is beating more than about 1
or
> 2 beats per second.  It depends on various things like whether it's a low,
> middle, or high register, if it's during a quiet or a loud passage, what
> else is going on in the music, how piercing a tone the particular
> out-of-tune instruments have, etc.
>     During the first opening thirds of Debussy's "Au Clair de Lune", a bad
> unison or too-wide third would be audible to discerning listeners, as
would
> G#3, if it were "out" at the beginning of Beethoven's "Moonlight Sonata",
> but in the middle of a crashing concerto with everybody vibrato-ing and
> playing fortissimo, and especially if there's also a choir singing, as in
> "The Messiah", and they're also all using
> vibrato, I'll bet there are regular pitch discrepancies of almost a
> quarter-step (25 cents) even in the best symphonies and choirs.  But the
> overall effect sounds "in tune" because none of those notes last very
long,
> it's not quiet enough to hear the beats, and the musicians are constantly
> adjusting their pitch.  It's like looking at a forested mountain from a
> distance -- the color appears uniform (green, or maybe a hazy blue or
> bluish-grey), but when you're on that mountain, the various trees have
many
> different shades of green, plus other colors like
> the brown of the trunks and branches, the grey of the rocks, etc.
>     No, I don't leave my octaves and unisons beating, but I have had
> customers ask why I keep pounding/tuning a note over and over when it
> doesn't sound to them like I'm even changing anything.
>     I've heard musicians tuning up before a gig, and when they're done
> tuning, I can hear that maybe the trumpet is sharp, one of the guitar
> strings is still flat, the bass's E string is quite flat -- whatever --
and
> they're thinking "close enough for jazz", yet when they play, it sounds
> fine, unless they were still grossly out of tune with each other.
> Out-of-tuneness probably would be more noticeable in a brass quintet or
> string quartet playing slow, quiet music than it would be in a loud jazz
or
> rock band, or for that matter, a loud symphony with a hundred instruments
> and forty voices.
>     If there's one golden aspen tree in the middle of 50,000 pines, you
> won't see it from 5 or 10 miles away and if there's one violin a
> quarter-step flat at the end of the 1812 Overture or perhaps during "Rite
of
> Spring", nobody will hear it except maybe the conductor and the
violinist's
> stand mate.            --David Nereson, RPT, Denver
>
>
>
>