Dear List, Ric Moody has urged me to post this to the List--I began here as a lurker some time ago, but having posted a few times recently, I guess I'll have to give up that status. I had originally responded to his posting privately, but he thought there might be some wider interest. > In a message dated 10/21/00 11:50:52 PM Central Daylight Time, > remoody@midstatesd.net writes: > > << That non ET will be standard in 2050 will be because all of the pianos are > > digital. And that will only be if the player desires to use the "dial up > > any temp" feature. In 2050 I wager that musicians and players > experienced > > enough in various temperaments will opt for the "default" good old ET. > > That ET is the default will because of the writing on the wall here in > 2000. > > Mainly the electronic keyboards playing with electric guitars modern band > > and orchestra instruments designed to ET and the recording industry that > > has to mix all this together. Because of this temperament choice is only > > for piano solo. The advocates of "anything other than ET" sooner or > later > > must honor the instrumental musicans by asking THEIR preference for the > > tuning of the piano they are playing to. The keyboardists probably won't > > care. For them temperament is an incumbrance---"the imperfection of the > > instrument" as the ancients used to say. > > > > My wager is, " With education knowldege and understanding" (of > > temperments) more and more musicians" will come to ask, "Who can hear the > > difference"? Pianos and electronic keyboards will continue to be > designed > > and played in ET, tuning machines will be designed around ET, not to > mention > > saxaphones flutes clarinets and all the orchestra instruments. After all > > musicians want to play in tune. That has been the age old impediment for > > orchestras and ensambles, and ET has had a great hand in over comming > this. > > You might as well try to change the alphabet of the English language, that > > is how much western music is based on ET. > > > > > > "Who can hear the difference can pay the price" if they want something > other > > than ET. Its not even a question of economics, it is a question of no > > difference to be heard in music. Or the few who claim to hear the > > difference will not provide the economic incentive to pay for the > > difference. >> > Hi, Ric! I'm assuming that you want me to do a "devil's advocate" kind of response to this, so let me give it a shot. Remember that large doses of this reply fall under the large, fuzzy category entitled "OPINION," so they shouldn't be assumed to have documentable background! IF, in fact, large numbers of temperaments are available on electronic instruments (and this will only happen if manufacturers are bombarded with requests for them), then I think it IS likely thatET will be the default, but not necessarily because it is naturally preferred. ET would be the neutral ground, in that EVERYTHING is equally out of tune. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking that anything but unisons (and octaves, if you accept the principle of "stretch," and I do.....) are truly, demonstrably "in tune." Actually, ET has been so prevalent during this century, that it makes sense to describe other temperaments in terms of "cents-off" from ET.....it's easily understood what that means. You know perfectly well that when you begin to put orchestral and band instruments into your argument that you're going to run into some trouble from me. While it is true that these instruments have been tweaked over the years to get them closer to ET, since that's been a standard created for the keyboard, it is also true that not one of them is truly an ET instrument. It can PLAY in ET, if the player is fully cognizant of intonation and tries to do that, but most of us don't really give a flying _____ about ET, we just play in tune. With a piano we adjust. If piano is only ONE of the ensemble members, well, then.......the piano might sound a bit out of tune from time to time by comparison. And let's not get too far into the electric guitar bit.....yes, the instruments are clearly designed to produce ET. Do they? In practice? Maybe, maybe not......I've heard lots of variations among "identical" instruments. And then there is the question of whether they start out in tune, and whether intonation at the volume levels frequently encountered makes any difference at all!!! What you should understand about saxophones, flutes, clarinets, oboes, bassoons.......is that key system upon key system has been devised over the past 150 years or so to get them at least close to each other in terms of the beginning point of intonation......but nothing is certain, nothing is safe, because a different player on the same instrument will change its intonation properties. Square one? You bet! And we haven't even MENTIONED brass instruments, which are closest to the Harmonic Series, owing to their dependence upon the harmonics of the tube. The players make them in tune after the manufacturers have done their best to get close. (Joe Goss? Mike Keener? You guys are players.....say it ain't so!!!) ET is basically a compromise born of the desire of keyboard players and composers to play in more than just a very few keys........but the character of the intonation IN those few keys (and others) was given up in the process. Do we miss it? Probably not, since many of us have never heard anything else, at least that we were aware of. I still don't think it is accurate to say that no one hears the difference. I do, and I appreciate that difference. In any case, I think that certain devotees of HTs overstate the case--hyperbole is not unusual among missionaries of ANY type--in saying that HTs will become the norm. I believe that HTs will become more an accepted part of the expressive arsenal for keyboard instruments. The whole situation doesn't HAVE to go any further than that, after all. Just look at that set of graphs that Ron Koval posted last week.........how far from ET are ANY of the WTs, at least? Yes, there will be noticeable changes, I believe, but will they be such that a violinist, flutist, oboist, etc., couldn't find ways to be in tune? Come on, those guys are EXPERTS at figuring out how to be in tune.....been doing it every day of their professional lives!!! (Susan? Agreed?) One of the things that has made a difference in this whole discussion is the existance of easily used ETDs.......whether one chooses to use them or not is not really the issue here.....it is true that they have made the accurate rendering of alternate temperaments more likely, after a few generations of ET-only aural tuners. Good or bad? Neither, probably. How about "different"? And not so VERY different, at that........but enough to be heard, at least in my limited experience. Economic incentive? For whom? Tuners? (Answer, ETD.) Players? Some will want to experiment....and I'd go with those betting that there will be more of them, not fewer. Manufacturers? No, not unless there is clearly a move in that direction by lots of musicians. Why spend money if you don't have to? (Del rightly reminds us of that reality on a regular basis.) But that's not an artistic decision, is it? Listeners? No, at least not the general listening population. They are only interested in the music "sounding good," whatever that may mean to them. For some it means never playing anything beyond Brahms! So that's taste, which is pretty difficult to chart for any economic trends! But there will be a few who will be intrigued by the possibility of different sounds in keyboard music. Will this be large enough for the recording industry to go into it? Probably not. Ed Foote may be quite alone in providing for this area. But......... Mind you, I think you might very well be correct, in that the HT thing may not go any further than it seems to be headed at the moment. But I don't think that you can identify simple reasons for that, if it happens that way. And I DO think that it is likely that more and more tuners will experiment with temperaments, and more will be willing to tune in that manner. I think that techs who DO offer choices are much appreciated by their own clienteles, and isn't that immediately important to them? Many take great pains to discuss this issue thoroughly with their customers before doing ANY alternate tuning style, and in doing so are opening up whole other musical vistas for people who might otherwise never know that alternatives existed. So.................if you want the intellectual waters muddied, you've come to the right place. I'm your man, alway willing and able to obfuscate, pretty much on the spot! Of course, I DO have this interest in the subject...... Whaddaya think? Bounced that ball right back out into the middle of the court! Stan Ryberg Barrington IL
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