Terry - I have refinished quite a few pianos (roughly 10) using Enduro's poly with none of the problems that you seem to be experiencing. I remember you were having the orange peel problems when spraying unthinned, and I have not had orange peel problems (bad enough to worry about) spraying straight from the can, so I do wonder a bit about your physical set-up. Perhaps you are unable to properly atomize the finishes unless thinned to a point where there is little build? Also, I rub out every finish to semi-gloss, in a very laborious, aerobic manner, and have never once sanded or rubbed thru to expose "witness lines", and I frequently start with a 400 grit paper to level. I have many times used wool-lube, a water-based rubbing medium, with no adverse effects, but I have always waited 10 days or more to do so. I have also used parafin rubbing oils with no adverse effect, sometimes as quickly as 5 days after top coating. I have been using water-based products exclusively for piano cases for over 9 years now, and have never rubbed thru to create witness lines, and I have used some real crummy finishes from Hydrocote in the "early days" when they were changing their formulations every 2 weeks trying to come up with something that might work, seeminly using us to tell them if it was working or not! I say all of this because I really can't believe that the finish itself is the real root of all of your problems. I do have to wonder about how stout a top coat would be when thinned 20% with a spray additive, which is what I believe you ended up doing at the suggestion of Mark Ellis? How many coats thinned in this manner did you apply? I would think it would require 3-4 when apllied this thin, and the coats would have to be the same day to ensure it ended up being "one film". Also, it is extremely important when using finishes that do not "burn in" to level the finish COMPLETELY before applying the one or two topcoats that you will rub out. I wasn't aware that the Pianolac was a 100% burn-in finish. That is certainly one of the biggest advnatages to using nitrocellulose lacquer. Shellac also provides this. Early on Hydrocote had a product called Equal that presumably did that, but as it turned out it was not very durable (among other problems). I recently tested a new product from Target Coatings called Premium Spray Lacquer, that is water-based and is 100% burn-in. I was very impressed with the way it handled, and I have been abusing it with hot liquids and water and household chemicals for over 3 weeks with no adverse effects. It has a built-in crosslinker. I will probably use it for my next ebony job for the top coats. These comments do not answer any of your questions, I know, but I just think that it is possible that the problems are not with the finish itself. At least that has been my experience with Enduro. Good luck, and let me know how you like Pianolac. I'll have to give it a try someday. Ah, the quest for the "perfect" water-based finish goes on! Mark Potter bases-loaded@juno.com On Tue, 29 Feb 2000 04:40:28 -0500 "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com> writes: > Dear List: > > Recently I posted on some of my problems and successes refinishing a > piano > with Enduro polyurethane. I have had recent problems while rubbing > out the > finish (like major!), and will in fact be re-topcoating the piano > with > Pianolac in the next week or so. The paragraphs below are pasted in > here > from other communications I have recently had in private posts. But > because > I expressed some strong positive comments about my experience with > Enduro, I > am posting this as suggested by Jeannie Grassi, RPT (Assistant > Editor, Piano > Technicians Journal) mailto:jgrassi@silverlink.net (I agree - good > suggestion). Anyone else have input related to breaching layers of > water-base paint during final flattening and rub-out? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > --------------------------------- > > > > > > Sent: February 10, 2000 > > > Re: Piano Lac vs Enduro > > > I am using Enduro Polyurethane on my first piano now. I have had > problems > > > with orange peel. I spoke to their expert the other day. He > recommended > > that > > > I spray closer & thin up to 20% with Enduro conditioner. I did > that. It > > > works excellent now. I love everything about it. It sands so > easily. The > > > finish is rock hard. Their clear grain filler is > out-of-this-world. I > > have > > > not tried the other. > > > > > > I highly recommend getting their waterbase polyurethane line > rather than > > > their less durable waterbase lacquer line (I believe they will > recommend > > > this also). > > > > > > And don't forget their Transparent Woodgrain Filler - can't live > (or at > > > least refinish easily) without it! I've never used anything like > it. > It's > > > too cool for words. The stuff is sort of like yogurt in > consistency. It > > > dries absolutely clear. I even put some on an ebony job after > one coat > of > > > black. It dried perfectly clear. You spread it on with a plastic > blade. > It > > > will not dry for at least five minutes, so you can work it in > really > well > > > and you have plenty of time to squeegee off any excess. > > > You can mix a tint/stain into it if you wish. Normally, with an > ebony > > finish > > > (like I am just finishing now), you do the grain filler and sand > smooth > > > (sands super easy), then apply top coats. With a natural finish > one > would > > > normally stain first then apply transparent grain filler. You > have lots > > of > > > time to work it into the grain and get it real smooth with a > blade. I > > sanded > > > my last filler with 220 grit. It went real quick and did not > sand > through > > > the filler. Good luck. > > > > > > Enduro products are available from: Compliant Spray Systems; > 3011 Vina > > Vial; > > > San Clemente, CA 92673; (949) 366-2322; (800) 696-0615. > > > > > Sent: February 20, 2000 > > > Re: Piano Lac vs Enduro > > For what it is worth, the item below was my refinishing experience > up to, > > but not including, polishing out the final finish. I started to > hand rub > out > > the finish the other day by wet sanding with 2,000-grit wet/dry > paper. > With > > only light sanding (not even enough to get the finish totally > flat) I went > > through a layer(s) of the polyurethane topcoat. When a topcoat > layer is > > breached, the result is a silvery outline at the layer contact. It > will > not > > sand or buff out. It's appearance is totally unacceptable. > > > > I am going to sand off most of the topcoat and get it real flat. > Then I > will > > apply either 6 coats of Enduro polyurethane black topcoat in one > day, or 6 > > coats of black PianoLac topcoat, either in one or more days (I > need to > > consult further with manufacturer). I believe one of these topcoat > > application schedules will result in a sufficiently thick topcoat > that can > > be sanded flat and rubbed to desired finish, and will not exhibit > the > layer > > breaching problem. > > > > > > Sent: February 28, 2000 > > > Re: Piano Lac vs Enduro > > Hi Jeannie: > > I would not recommend Enduro now as I did previously. I have an idea > it may > be great for someone that does not rub out the final finish - but > may not be > good if one does rub out. I talked today with their expert and he > was > surprised that I was having the problem of breaching paint layers. > The > layering problem appears common to most water-base paints. He says > that he > can sand the final coat flat with 1,000 grit wet paper and not > breach a > layer - hence no problem. He agreed that it sounded like I was > putting on a > heavy-enough coat. He could not figure out why I was having the > problem. I > have tried three separate pieces - test boards, bench lid, and > soundboard - > sanding with 2,000 grit wet paper - breached layers on all of them. > > I am ordering Pianolac materials today. I am going to sand the piano > down > (taking much of the Enduro off) and apply topcoats of Pianolac per > manufacturers recommendations. The main claim (that has attracted my > attention) Pianolac makes is that sprayed coats bond in such a way > that one > will not see any layering upon hard sanding of final coat. This is > what I > want & need. I am ordering today and sanding today and tomorrow. I > will > likely be spraying in about one week. Flattening and rub-out will > follow > about one week after that. So, I really will not have a final > opinion until > two to three weeks from now. > > In summary, I don't know if Enduro is any more problematic than any > other > water-base paint at this point. The review/tests that appeared in a > recent > issue of Fine Woodworking Magazine indicated that it was superior to > the > other six-or-so water-base paints they tried. I will have a > definitive > opinion within 3 weeks whether I had better luck with Pianolac! I > know I > won't have anything before your 8-day deadline. Let me know if you > want more > info after I have rubbed-out the Pianolac finish. Good luck! > > Terry Farrell > Piano Tuning & Service > Tampa, Florida > mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com >
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