James Grebe R.P.T. of the P.T.G. from St. Louis pianoman@inlink.com "Success is not a goal, rather it is a way of life". ---------- > From: Eugenia Carter <ginacarter@msn.com> > To: pianotech@ptg.org > Subject: Re: Temperaments > Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 9:31 AM > > Bill, > > First I do listen to "What d'ya know" and like it very much. (It comes on > here right after Car Talk, another of my favorite programs.) However, I > almost always switch stations when the music begins to play 'cause the > out-of-tune piano drives me nuts! Not necessarily the tuning, but the wild > unisions. Can't get past them to even listen to the tuning itself, much less > the music. So, if you are the tuner or you know who the tuner is, sure > would be nice if you would pass that on. (Or is what drives me nuts the > tuning itself and not wild unisions?) > > >There are no statutes on the book here in Madison that state what a > "normal" > >piano tuning is. I doubt if there are anywhere else either. The HT's have > >been practiced here long enough that they are known and talked about and > >sometimes specifically requested. It is also well known in my community > that > >I do NOT tune ET. Therefore, there are some customers who do NOT call me > >because of that. > > Bill, you might just want to study a little about common law. In American > society a lot of things are _not_ written as statutes simply because common > law takes precedence. Therefore, your statement that "no statues on the book > here in Madison that state what a 'normal' tuning is." is not a valid, legal > premise. Those customers who do not call you are not the issue; the issue is > those who _do_ call you who do _not_ know that you do not tune ET. > > >When the customer wants to talk and have things explained, I am glad to do > so.> > > If you are so strongly convinced that anything but ET is better, then why do > you not take the opportunity to convince those uneducated customers that > your way is better? > > >Otherwise, given the very hostile climate that the ET="normal" crowd has > >created>> > > Bill, the only person I have seen demonstrate a "hostile" attitude in this > entire list discussion is you. And I resent your implication that those of > us who do offer ET have created such hostility. I have seen more openness on > this list regarding the various temperaments that I would have ever > expected. > > >I prefer to combine two popular slogans as my motto whether it is in > >regard to tuning, voicing, regulation or any other service I might provide: > > > >"Don't ask, don't tell, just do it." > > Your preferences are your business; just don't ask me to condone them either > openly or tacitly by not replying. IMO "don't ask, don't tell, just do it" > verges on the border of possibly illegal behavior but definitely unethical. > > > -Gina Carter, Charlotte NC > -----Original Message----- > From: Billbrpt <Billbrpt@aol.com> > To: pianotech@ptg.org <pianotech@ptg.org> > Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 9:41 AM > Subject: Re: Temperaments > > > >In a message dated 98-01-26 07:32:08 EST, Micheal Jorgensen writes: > > > ><<...though I certainly respect ET and think it is remarkable > > how close tuners actually come to it in practice. >> > > > >In a message dated 98-01-25 16:18:10 EST, Jim Bryant writes: > > > ><< b. If the 'contract', as agreed to did not specify a temperament to use > >and you used a temperament that was not the 'norm' of the community then > the > >contract would not have been fulfilled faithfully. Even if the customer > >absolutely loved your temperament you would not have lived up to the > >expectations of the 'norm' and the contract was not fulfilled faithfully. > In > >this situation the customer loved your tuning and accepted it as presented > >even though it was not in accordance with the contract. > > c. If the 'contract', as agreed to, did not specify a temperament to > use > >and you used a temperament that was not the 'norm' of the community then > the > >contract would not have been fulfilled faithfully. If in this instance the > >customer hated or was at least unhappy with the temperament, and desired > you > >to either put a "normal" tuning on it or to leave the premisies, what then > do > >you say? "well mam you just don't appreciate the advantages of this > >'historical temperament" and expect to be paid? In this instance you have > no > >right to expect to be paid as you did not live up to the "implicit > contract". > > You can turn and twist this all you like but the act of putting on a non > >"normal" tuning on a piano without the advice, consent, and knowledge of > your > >customer is unethical and is not tempered by how well or poorly any tuning > was > >done. > > When it comes to "historical temperaments" Bill your quest should be to > >'educate' not 'dictate'.>> > > > >There are no statutes on the book here in Madison that state what a > "normal" > >piano tuning is. I doubt if there are anywhere else either. The HT's have > >been practiced here long enough that they are known and talked about and > >sometimes specifically requested. It is also well known in my community > that > >I do NOT tune ET. Therefore, there are some customers who do NOT call me > >because of that. > > > >I still have 25-30 piano tunings/sevices to do a week so I can afford to be > >exclusive about what kind of work I will accept. I am not the only > technician > >here who tunes exclusively HT's. > > > >In a message dated 98-01-25 20:18:31 EST, Ralph Martin writes: > > > ><< If what you say is true (that ET is "dying out") then we are going to be > > forced back into writing and performing music with very simple chord > > structures. I simply can't see that happening > > >> > ><< I offer an historical tuning to every teacher of classical music > > that I service. Thus far they all seem aware of the other tunings but > > refuse them in favour of ET anyway. > > >> > >With all due respect to Ralph, all kinds of music from classical to > >contemporary can and are played on HT's here in Madison. If you tune into > >Public Radio International (the AM band counterpart of National Public > Radio) > >on Saturday mornings from 10 am to 12 pm CST, you can hear a live broadcast > >from Madison in which the piano is tuned in an HT. The show is called > "What > >d'ya know?". Yes, the pianist is aware of the kind of tuning it is and > >prefers it. HT's on this program have been in use for many years and so > might > >be considered the "norm". The music played is contempoary jazz and the > fact > >that this music has much complex harmony involving virtually all possible > >tonalities demonstrates that ET is not required (and in my opinion, not > >desirable) when playing this or virtually any other kind of music. > > > >Again, with all due respect to Ralph, I wonder how the two choices that he > >offers are being presented? "Normal" vs. "abnormal". "Modern vs. > archaic?". > >"Mean" tones vs. "nice, smooth ones"? > > > >I could say for example, "I'll give you a choice in how you'd like your > piano > >tuned: > > > >Option A: A nice, well-tempered tuning. It is the way all of the > European > >composers tuned from the time of Bach through the Victorian era. Each key > you > >play in will have a distinct character. At the top of the cycle of 5ths, > you > >will hear smooth, gentle, quiet harmony. In the remote keys, you'll hear > >beautiful vibrant, singing tones, enhanced leading tones. When you play > >modern music such as jazz, you'll hear crisp clear harmonies. > > > >Option B: A method forced upon the general population in the early 20th > >Century by people who weren't even musicians. There were people who were > >trying to define music "scientifically" who prescribed a certain irrational > >frequency for each note of the scale. Later, a machine called the "Strobe > >Tuner" was invented to help tuners get these frequencies exactly because it > >was so difficult for them to do by ear. It became common for tuners to buy > >these "Strobe Tuners" because tuning in this new "scientific" way was > thought > >to be somehow better than the natural way that the ear hears so easily. If > I > >tune your piano this way, none of the harmony you hear from your > traditional > >and classical music will sound the way the composer intended. Every chord > you > >play will be slightly "sour" and unfocused sounding. There will be no > >distinction between any of the keys. They will all have that same, > >undesirable sound. There won't be any reason to modulate from one key to > the > >next because they have all been homogenized into one slightly "sour" but > >supposedly "scientific" arrangement. The smooth, quiet harmony you expect > to > >hear in the top of the cycle of 5ths will have a "busy", nervous sound to > it, > >quite inappropriate, I'd say. That beautiful "singing" tone you want to > hear > >when you play Chopin will be flattened and dulled over. Your leading tones > >won't lead so well either. > > > >So which would you prefer, Ma'am, option A or B? Bye the way, have you > ever > >heard a piano that someone tuned with a Strobe Tuner?" > > > >I find Micheal's observation very interesting. He finds it remarkable how > >close some technicians come to what is being purported as "normal". On a > >daily basis, it seems inponderable how many technicians there might be who > >are not fulfilling contracts by Jim's standards. > > > >Of course, I don't offer "Option A or B" to my customers. I do talk about > the > >nature of tuning and temperament with them when I feel it is appropriate to > do > >so. This idea that somehow ET has become "normal" has caused most > >practitioners of HT's to be wary of how much information it is prudent to > >disclose when it has not been solicited. Although I am known as an HT > >practitioner, I am better known as a technician who makes pianos sound and > >play very well. What the customers recognize is how good the music sounds, > >how well and long the piano stays in tune and how well it responds because > of > >my attention to other aspects of preparation other than tuning. In my > view, > >the difference I make with an HT is a proportinately very small part of the > >overall distinction I make for my self by offering a complete, thorough > and > >competent piano service. > > > >When the customer wants to talk and have things explained, I am glad to do > so. > >Otherwise, given the very hostile climate that the ET="normal" crowd has > >created, I prefer to combine two popular slogans as my motto whether it is > in > >regard to tuning, voicing, regulation or any other service I might provide: > > > >"Don't ask, don't tell, just do it." > > > >Bill Bremmer RPT > >Madison, Wisconsin > > > > > > > > > > > > >
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