hi Chris, this is interesting. After some googles I have found a few articles thatshed some light. Are these shanks hollow or solid? Apparently there is advancedphysics involved in the oscillating style modes of carbon fiber so I guess that all parts are in a vibrational state whether played or not. I have been cycling on carbon fiber frames for years and it is a sweet ride and there is even a sound to it. Mr. Sutton's point of excessive brightness brings up the subject for me thatMason's had a warmer tonality before the days of Renner hammers. I preferSteinway hammers especially in the top end where there is more underfelt tocushion the molding and also it is not glued at the tip. So maybe the comboof softer hammers juiced up, the resonater, and carbon fiber action parts isthe wave of the future. Since carbon fiber dust can arc I would stay awayfrom using a Dremel tool for cutting should one end up with toasted fingers. Brent --- On Fri, 9/10/10, chris at csollidaypiano.com <chris at csollidaypiano.com> wrote: From: chris at csollidaypiano.com <chris at csollidaypiano.com> Subject: Re: [CAUT] CAUT Digest, Vol 23, Issue 23 To: caut at ptg.org Date: Friday, September 10, 2010, 5:40 AM Brent, I assure you it is not the resonator that I experienced. I have been working with Masons for over 30 years. No this was definitely the shank and Bruce Clark explained that the sustain begins sooner and lasts longer as a result. The difference is quite startling. Chris Solliday Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: caut-request at ptg.org Sender: caut-bounces at ptg.org Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 21:52:01 To: <caut at ptg.org> Reply-To: caut at ptg.org Subject: CAUT Digest, Vol 23, Issue 23 Send CAUT mailing list submissions to caut at ptg.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/caut or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to caut-request at ptg.org You can reach the person managing the list at caut-owner at ptg.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of CAUT digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Hammer shank cutting block (Ron Nossaman) 2. Re: Hammer shank cutting block (Edward Sambell) 3. Re: Hammer shank cutting block (isaac at isaacpiano.com) 4. Re: WNG parts (Brent Fischer) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 18:38:32 -0500 From: Ron Nossaman <rnossaman at cox.net> To: caut at ptg.org Subject: Re: [CAUT] Hammer shank cutting block Message-ID: <4C896FF8.8060708 at cox.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 9/9/2010 5:48 PM, Jim Busby wrote: > Ron, > > The guy that taught that glue class used garlic (Yep, garlic!) and > stuck something (with hide glue) to metal that supposedly wouldn't > work. Vinny showed me, and I laughed... but it worked. Seriously. > Ever tried it? I certainly thought it wouldn't... I can't remember > how he did it, but I think some incantations might have been used as > well. Hmmm, that sounds familiar, from a long time ago. I've stuck things to metal with hide clue, but as the glue hardened, it failed later. I haven't tried it with garlic. Seems to me you needed a vampire in there somewhere too... Ron N ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 19:13:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Edward Sambell <esambell at yahoo.com> To: caut at ptg.org Subject: Re: [CAUT] Hammer shank cutting block Message-ID: <56427.34064.qm at web113214.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Sorry about he photos. I have resent them via Adobe Photo Mail, and hope it works this time. There is no setup time with the block and it holds the shank very securely. The Kawai tech cut the shank off with one stroke of the saw.The sawdust is very minor, but if it proved to be a problem I would make a little cloth hood and move it from hammer to hammer. I only present the idea to show that we do not always need elaborate equipment to work efficiently. and is not intended to claim it as superior to any other method. What works best for you is the way to go. Thanks Ron for your information on the glue. Paul: Thanks for your kind comments. I am no longer in Banff , and moved to London, Ontario to be close to my family after retiring in 2001. I still do a little work, but at age eighty-seven no longer full time. I am tinkering with making simple tools, and am currently working on an article on voicing uprights. I am very well and enjoying life. Ted Sambell ________________________________ From: Jim Busby <jim_busby at byu.edu> To: "caut at ptg.org" <caut at ptg.org> Sent: Thu, September 9, 2010 5:28:26 PM Subject: Re: [CAUT] Hammer shank cutting block Paul, On the last few sets I used my ?Multitool?, http://allprotools.com/dremel/oscillating-tool.html?gclid=CKqMm7Sk-6MCFRxEgwod3HFQHQ and my shank clamps, and it literally took me longer to attach the clamps than it did to cut them off. Best, Jim From:caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Paul T Williams Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 3:19 PM To: caut at ptg.org Subject: Re: [CAUT] Hammer shank cutting block Sorry Ted, but no photos were attached! I've also found a Dremmel tool with a cutter works nice and neat as well with little sanding....and very fast! I just tried this with my first set of WNG carbon fiber shanks, and with a few minutes of careful prep (ie covering the hammers to keep the black dust off) works very well. I'll use this method again even with wood shanks. Even a first try took about 15 minutes, and I'm sure it will speed up next time. Are you still in Banff, Alberta? I still have that hammer-top "squaring off" sanding jig you gave me some 15 years ago and use it often! (new sandpaper replaced, of course! ;>) ) Thank you so much! Best, Paul From: Edward Sambell <esambell at yahoo.com> To: caut at ptg.org Date: 09/09/2010 03:43 PM Subject: [CAUT] Hammer shank cutting block ________________________________ The attached photos are of a hammer shank cutting block I made ten years ago and used ever since for cutting away the protruding stubs of new grand hammer shanks. It is based on those used in the Kawai factory. Their technician did a whole set in less than five minutes. I could not work that fast; it generally takes me ten minutes or more. A Japanese saw (which cuts on the pull stroke) MUST be used, as a Western saw can result in damage to the centers. I use a Dozuki (dovetail) saw with a stiff back 9" blade. Cutting flush carefully makes sanding the shank ends unnecessary, though a few strokes with a sanding paddle gives a nice appearance. I have the WNG kit, but have yet to install a set of the shanks, so do not know if the saw will cut them satisfactorily. If it does, there will be very little dust. If anyone is interested in further information, let me know and I will post a sketch and instructions on making the block. It is very simple, and can be made in half an hour, but one does need a table saw and dado blades. As for glue - is hide glue unsuitable for the carbon fibre material? Wherever it makes sense I prefer natural glues. What about fish glue? It sets slowly ,but has a fast tack, . I find it helps correct the vertical angles while gluing the hammers on. Ted Sambell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/caut.php/attachments/20100909/8d76bd72/attachment-0001.htm> ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 21:50:36 -0400 From: isaac at isaacpiano.com To: <caut at ptg.org> Subject: Re: [CAUT] Hammer shank cutting block Message-ID: <201009100150.o8A1oU1U018167 at mail305c9.megamailservers.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Ted. Did you, by any chance, receive the cd I sent you a couple of weeks ago? I hope so. If you did receive it, did you have a chance to listen to it? I wonder, if you did, what you think of the tone on that recording. Thank you Ari Isaac. -----Original Message----- From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Edward Sambell Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 4:36 PM To: caut at ptg.org Subject: [CAUT] Hammer shank cutting block The attached photos are of a hammer shank cutting block I made ten years ago and used ever since for cutting away the protruding stubs of new grand hammer shanks. It is based on those used in the Kawai factory. Their technician did a whole set in less than five minutes. I could not work that fast; it generally takes me ten minutes or more. A Japanese saw (which cuts on the pull stroke) MUST be used, as a Western saw can result in damage to the centers. I use a Dozuki (dovetail) saw with a stiff back 9" blade. Cutting flush carefully makes sanding the shank ends unnecessary, though a few strokes with a sanding paddle gives a nice appearance. I have the WNG kit, but have yet to install a set of the shanks, so do not know if the saw will cut them satisfactorily. If it does, there will be very little dust. If anyone is interested in further information, let me know and I will post a sketch and instructions on making the block. It is very simple, and can be made in half an hour, but one does need a table saw and dado blades. As for glue - is hide glue unsuitable for the carbon fibre material? Wherever it makes sense I prefer natural glues. What about fish glue? It sets slowly ,but has a fast tack, . I find it helps correct the vertical angles while gluing the hammers on. Ted Sambell No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3124 - Release Date: 09/09/10 02:34:00 ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 20:45:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Brent Fischer <brent.fischer at yahoo.com> To: caut at ptg.org Subject: Re: [CAUT] WNG parts Message-ID: <924107.65216.qm at web113513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Chris, the Mason and Hamlin tension resonator is more likely what you areexperiencing here. ?As you know it is installed and tightened before the outerrim is glued on and even at that point there is a noticeable sustain just?whacking the center disc. With the plate out and giving the board a thumpit is quite remarkable how the resonater supports soundboard sustain.I know nothing about the possible benefits of these shanks for tone productionbut it could be a case of STI. (shank tonal imprint) --- On Thu, 9/9/10, Chris Solliday <chris at csollidaypiano.com> wrote: From: Chris Solliday <chris at csollidaypiano.com> Subject: [CAUT] WNG parts To: caut at ptg.org Date: Thursday, September 9, 2010, 3:13 PM I too am in the process of restoring a M&H BB using WNG parts. It discussion has been most interesting and I thank everyone for answering many of my questions before they were asked. I played the CC at Las Vegas this summer and was very impressed the touch and its evenness. I was, however, literally frightened by the tone quality. At first I thought that it was amplified and I asked Bruce to turn it off. He assured me that it wasn?t and that if I kept playing I would get used to ?it.? To some degree I did but I really felt like I would like an hour or two alone in a quiet room to really warm up to something so atypical. The sound is HOT. The sustain is long and it begins at a level that seems higher sooner. I still haven?t got exactly the right description for it but it is definitely different than most anything else (read, wooden shanks). My fear is that the pianist that I am working for will also be frightened. This piano is in his teaching studio and then he and the students go to the recital hall where there is a Bosendorfer and a Steinway for their concerts. I?m worried that even if they do like or get used to the WNG shanks tonal production, they may find practicing on it and then shifting gears to the more conventional tone of the other pianos too much of a jump. I haven?t drilled the hammers yet and have a set of wooden ones which I bought just in case. The design and material choice of these parts seems revolutionary in terms of stability and weight control, to me at least, and I really want them to work. I notice that Kawai with their entry hasn?t gone to the shanks with plastic, perhaps for the reasons that I fear. Does anyone have any experience with this aspect yet? Or opinions? Oh I know there are opinions out there! I?m askin? for it. Thanks, Chris Solliday ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/caut.php/attachments/20100909/ab7c2a16/attachment.htm> ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ CAUT mailing list CAUT at ptg.org http://ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/caut End of CAUT Digest, Vol 23, Issue 23 ************************************ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/caut.php/attachments/20100910/9605b0bc/attachment-0001.htm>
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