No, you're correct David, I still intend to "sample" the Weickert felt hammers in this piano. I mentioned Renner Blues only in contrast, in that I've used them in this piano/space several times in past, but they needed a lot of deep needling initially, and a fair amount of maintenance over time. I also mentioned using Renner Blues in /other /pianos in larger venues recently, and really liking the results. However, in the 200 seat hall I'm describing, I feel Renner Blues would still need too much needling, which in my mind means two things: 1.) Overly aggressive needling (trying to make them sound like something they are not) that de-stabilizes the hammer and shortens it's life span. 2.) A lot of maintenance over time, to keep them sounding nice. IOW, I feel that choosing the Blues for this situation would mean ignoring the paradigm of /choosing hammers that give the results we're after, with the least initial work/. This is why I'm interested in the Weickerts. I think what you're suggesting is that the Hamburg Renner (red underfelt) and the Abel selects may offer a middle ground between the Weickerts and the blues? (To others reading, this may all sound a bit confusing, moreso if you hold the belief you can create any sound with any hammer. However, in my expereince, a whole new world of tonal possibilities opened up with the introduction of Wurzen AA felt and more recently with the Weickert Special. These hammers also respond differently to needling techniques, which I won't calim to have yet mastered.) thanks, Mark Cramer On 03/06/2010 2:30 PM, David Love wrote: > I wasn't thinking Renner blues. Hamburg Renner or the Abels I > mentioned. Did I misunderstand you? I thought you said you were > considering weikert felt hammers. > > > > David Love > www.davidlovepianos.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From: * Mark Cramer <cramer at brandonu.ca> > *Date: *Thu, 03 Jun 2010 10:11:45 -0500 > *To: *<caut at ptg.org> > *Subject: *Re: [CAUT] Steinway extra-bore-length > > Thanks for this David, it's a 200 seat recital hall with a lot of > presence. At the 800 seat auditorium next door, New York hammers are > the ticket, but in past years when the Renner Blues went through their > own ugly period, they were just too blatant for this intimate room. > > I've used the Blues recently for a CF, and 1970's D that I did for a > large hall in the US, and they reminded me of the sound when these > hammers were first introduced, very satisfying at all dynamic levels. > They still needed more initial prep however than the handy little > voicing booklet they came with suggested, IMHO, anyhow. > > I'm looking forward to sampling the Weickerts, and thanks for > suggesting several other good options. > > Mark Cramer, > Brandon University > > PS Are we all aware that the latest Yamaha (CF-X?) has Wurzen-felt > hammers? > > On 02/06/2010 10:57 PM, David Love wrote: >> >> Tonally I think it’s better to have the hammer striking at 90 >> degrees. Of course how long it stays that way with wear and tear is >> a separate matter. I know some people you bore on the long side by >> 1/32” or so just so that have a bit on both sides of the 90 degrees >> to play with. I don’t know if it really matters. >> >> The Weikert felt is very nice but quite warm and slightly dark. I >> like it very much in an intimate setting but you should probably >> sample so see if it’s appropriate for this piano and this performance >> space. Also, with a D and its higher tension scale and heavier board >> I think you may need something a bit punchier. There are some other >> options worth looking at. As an aside I’m not a personal fan using >> the same NY Steinway hammer on a D as one uses on an M and with the >> exception of the size and weight--the pressing and density of the two >> hammers seems identical. The D needs something different to >> accommodate its heavier design. Personally I would opt for either a >> Hamburg Steinway Renner (if you like to needle voice) or Pianotek’s >> Abel Select hammers (their exclusive pressing). But sampling is >> always good in these cases, IMHO. >> >> David Love >> >> www.davidlovepianos.com >> >> *From:* Mark Cramer [mailto:cramer at brandonu.ca] >> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 02, 2010 9:15 AM >> *To:* davidlovepianos at comcast.net; caut at ptg.org >> *Subject:* Re: [CAUT] Steinway extra-bore-length >> >> Right, we shortened the regulating screws by about 3mm which required >> re-grinding the ends to a point and sizing the holes (3:1 water/glue) >> as the screws were barely finger tight. >> >> Thanks for boiling this down for me David. So, basically whether >> having the hammer perpendicular at strike is more or less critical >> than (minor) implications to touch. (?) Yamaha for instance has a >> longer bore, bringing touch factors you mention into play, however >> they seem to negate this by altering hammer rake-angle. (Blow >> distance is similar to the shorter bore hammers). >> >> All things considered, I think I'll go back to the 51mm bore length >> for the next set of hammers, which in the case of this piano (in a >> recital space) will likely be the new Weickert Special felt. >> >> thanks all, >> Mark C. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 02/06/2010 10:36 AM, David Love wrote: >> >> The only issue with the longer bore and thinned rest cushions that I >> can think of is if the shanks contact the balancier regulating screws >> on a hard rebound. The touchweight dynamics can be influenced by the >> shank starting at a lower angle. The increased travel along the >> horizontal axis can increase the force required to initiate the key >> stroke when compared to a higher starting point. >> >> >> >> David Love >> www.davidlovepianos.com <http://www.davidlovepianos.com> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *From: *Mark Cramer <cramer at brandonu.ca> <mailto:cramer at brandonu.ca> >> >> *Date: *Wed, 02 Jun 2010 10:00:16 -0500 >> >> *To: *<caut at ptg.org> <mailto:caut at ptg.org> >> >> *Subject: *Re: [CAUT] Steinway extra-bore-length >> >> Okay, that's a rationale I can live with. >> >> In this case however, with *thin* rest cushions I actually *can* bore >> the hammers to full length (51mm, if memory serves) and still move >> the action in /out without angling (pitch) the hammers. >> >> BTW, regarding stack height, maybe I wasn't clear enough... I have NO >> intention of tampering with this. There is simply no need. >> >> What I should've asked perhaps is what good reason is there for *not* >> lengthening the bore when it will solve a strike issue, especially >> when case fit isn't a problem? >> >> Steinway obviously couldn't do this being limited to their stock bore >> lengths, and I wouldn't either, from a manufacturer's point of view. >> >> This particular supplier however had strong opinions about extra >> bore-length affecting the performance of the action. I don't get it, >> and would appreciate someone enlightening me as to why, if in fact it >> is an issue. Strike-weight wouldn't be that big an issue. >> >> Otherwise, I'm planning to go back to the 51mm bore, and my only >> caution to others calculating a bore-length longer than stock, is >> make sure it all fits back in the piano. >> >> thanks, >> Mark Cramer, >> Brandon University >> >> PS I have no issue whatsoever with a blow-distance that results in >> bass hammers rubbing the pin-block going in and out of the case. All >> performance objectives considered. >> >> On 02/06/2010 9:02 AM, David Love wrote: >> >> So the standard bore of 1 15/16” in the tenor treble increased to 2 >> 1/16” was the difference between being able to get the hammers under >> the block? If that’s the case then practicality reigns supreme. Use >> the maximum bore that still allows the hammers under the block and >> angle the hammers back to get them at 90 degrees at string contact. >> There are many examples of pianos that do this without any problems >> and an extra 1/8” of travel requires a minimal angling especially >> when combined with the upward slope of the strings from termination >> to bridge. >> >> David Love >> >> www.davidlovepianos.com <http://www.davidlovepianos.com> >> >> *From:* caut-bounces at ptg.org <mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org> >> [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] *On Behalf Of *Mark Cramer >> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 01, 2010 8:43 PM >> *To:* caut at ptg.org <mailto:caut at ptg.org> >> *Subject:* [CAUT] Steinway extra-bore-length >> >> A week or so back, Jon Page mentioned the correct method of >> calculating hammer-bore length. >> >> Thanks for that Jon, it's the same method we use, excepting where the >> hammers are deliberately pitched, but here's a funny story from a few >> years... okay, a decade ago: >> >> I was preparing hammers for a 1980's D and found that bore length >> worked out about 3mm (1/8th) longer than spec. Since we tend to buy >> our hammers un-trimmed and extra-length, it was no problem to bore >> them with plenty of tail length. As a caution, I tested samples on >> the bench and all was fine. Fine... until installing the action that is. >> >> The action wouldn't fit back in the piano... even with the shanks >> buried in the cushions, no deal! (that was the chuckle part, the rest >> is pretty boring, but I do have a question) >> >> So, we thinned the cushions and even shortened the balancier height >> adjustment screws. All worked wonderfully, and /three years later/ I >> repeated the dimensions with the next set of hammers. / >> >> Three years later again/, I was pressed for time and ordered some >> pre-hung aftermarket hammers. The supplier was quite adamant that the >> hammers be bored to original spec, even though this would result in >> over-strike. Knowing I had room to push the action back (return to >> factory position), I went along with their advice, even though it >> meant replacing cushions, etc. >> >> Now it is /"three years later" yet again/, and time for fresh hammers. >> >> I really like the idea of the hammers being at right angles to the >> string, and the shanks horizontal at strike, which is the result we >> get with Jon's measurements. However, I wonder about the implications >> of the extra-long bore... aside from the need to get the action in >> and out of the piano that is. >> >> Raising the stack (3mm) would take care of things, but this is really >> a very efficient action, and I neither want, nor see a need to tamper >> with that. What's more, I can't say I really noticed a difference in >> performance with either bore dimension. >> >> The Question: >> >> So, what are the rest of you (and Jon) doing in this situation, and why? >> >> thanks, >> Mark Cramer, RPT >> Brandon University >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/caut.php/attachments/20100603/fddefb55/attachment-0001.htm>
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