[CAUT] ET vs UET was RE: using as ETD

[Laurence Libin]

It's worth considering that subliminal perception isn't negligible. Even if 
we can't put our finger on a cause, we often respond to tiny stimuli that 
reach us below the level of consciousness. Cognitive neuroscience 
demonstrates that nothing's trivial.
Laurence

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Love" <davidlovepianos at comcast.net>
To: <caut at ptg.org>
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [CAUT] ET vs UET was RE: using as ETD


> Well, I don't know about 2 or 3 cents, that seems like a lot.  But there's
> certainly some wiggle room.  As several people have pointed out, minor
> variations in temperament are probably not picked up by most people. Even
> very mild UETs versus ET probably slip by most.  Stronger UETs I think can
> be heard pretty easily though many pianists unaware of the temperament 
> issue
> might not recognize exactly what they are hearing.  That, however, 
> shouldn't
> be confused with the idea that they can't hear the difference.
>
> David Love
> www.davidlovepianos.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Ed
> Sutton
> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 5:50 AM
> To: caut at ptg.org
> Subject: Re: [CAUT] ET vs UET was RE: using as ETD
>
> Let's look at this question from a different viewpoint. We argue about
> miniscule measurements of pitch. We also know how quickly pianos wander in
> response to temperature and humidity changes, assuming we knew and could
> produce perfect tuning to begin with.
> So, looking at the situations where the pianist/professor/performer must 
> pay
>
> for each tuning, I find that it is extremely rare for a paying customer,
> even a customer of high level skill and reputation, to pay for more than 4
> tunings a year on their personal pianos. Most do with less. Some with much
> less. One who is a recitalist and much published in piano pedagogy circles
> who says "My piano is amazingly stable, hardly ever needs tuning." His 
> wife
> winces when he says it.
> What does this say about pitch, tuning and temperament in the real world,
> not to mention octave stretching (or shrinking, as the humidity may be)?
> Search the list for complaints about world-class artists who practice on
> out-of-tune instruments until 15 minutes before curtain.
> There are many different ways of hearing sound and music. Many of them do
> not require tuning to an accuracy of 2 or 3 cents for every note. When is
> enough, enough? Some years ago Dan Levitan calculated and produced (just
> once) an optimal temperament on his piano, and concluded he'd rather spend
> the time playing music.
> Ed Sutton
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Laurence Libin" <lelibin at optonline.net>
> To: <caut at ptg.org>
> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 7:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [CAUT] ET vs UET was RE: using as ETD
>
>
>> It's well known that as far back as the Renaissance equal temperament was
>> one of many options among which musicians could select depending on taste
>> and the demands of the music. It still is, but precise 100-cent semitones
>> remain, it seems to me, a theoretical ideal seldom achieved (or maybe 
>> even
>
>> desirable) in practice except, perhaps, on electronic instruments. At any
>> rate I think it's fair to say that true ET is less prevalent on pianos
>> today than many people suppose, and that euphonic results, however
>> achieved, matter more than strict adherence to any theoretical model. Do
>> we agree?
>> Laurence
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Love" <davidlovepianos at comcast.net>
>> To: <caut at ptg.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 11:03 PM
>> Subject: [CAUT] ET vs UET was RE: using as ETD
>>
>>
>> And Brahms certainly wrote in a lot of outer keys.  This discussion crops
>> up
>> periodically and I often think it's justification after the fact.  Recent
>> research by Michael Kimbel (RPT CTE composer and musicologist) suggests
>> very
>> strongly that the use of ET was in practice much earlier than those
>> arguing
>> in favor of UETs based on historical precedent would probably find useful
>> for their position.  Arguments for UETs seem often based on a few
>> reputable
>> pianists who for personal reasons find it preferable.  Certainly nothing
>> wrong with that.  Yet there are many pianists who don't find it 
>> preferable
>> but remain somewhat silent on the subject, at least publicly.   Arguing
>> taste has no chance of a resolution, of course.  Arguing historical
>> precedent does, possibly, but the research doesn't seem to fall in favor
>> of
>> those who advocate UETs for that reason.
>>
>> David Love
>> www.davidlovepianos.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Okay, but then it wouldn't have occurred to me that 1880 or thereabouts
>> was
>> still early in the 19th century. In that case, Brahms surely qualifies 
>> for
>> your survey? Anyway, I've kind of lost the point here; is it that a
>> predilection for keys far from C suggests less tolerance for temperaments
>> other than ET?
>>
>> Laurence
>>
>>
>> On Apr 18, 2010, at 4:21 PM, Laurence Libin wrote:
>>
>>
>> Uh, there was a guy called "Beetgarden" or something like that. Unless by
>> early you mean folks born early in that century.
>> Laurence
>>
>> Fair enough, I was in a Romantic period mindset, and really thinking
>> forward
>> into the 19th century from maybe 1815 to 1880 or thereabouts, so it 
>> didn't
>> occur to me to include that minor figure from the archaic past of the 
>> 18th
>> century <G>. Still, if we want to include Ludwig in the survey, his last
>> 16
>> sonatas include seven with overall key signatures of three or more sharps
>> or
>> flats. And three of those 16 are "easy" (sonatinas) so perhaps they 
>> should
>> be omitted from the statistics. So Beethoven is certainly heading into 
>> the
>> remoter keys in his 18th century output for piano.
>> Fred
>>
>>
>> (Chopin excepted).
>>
>> And Schumann, and Schubert and Liszt and Mendelssohn. Are there any other
>> truly prominent early 19th century composers for keyboard? (18th century
>> is
>> an entirely different matter).
>> Regards,
>> Fred Sturm
>> fssturm at unm.edu
>> http://www.cdbaby.com/Artist/FredSturm
>>
>>
>>
>