>So here are some questions for you: Do you prefer standardized, mass-produced beer and wine or ones with marked character? Would you choose the same wine or beer to accompany all your meals, or select ones that best complement each dish? < Well, apparently you'll drink whatever is served... '-] David Ilvedson, RPT Pacifica, CA 94044 ----- Original message ---------------------------------------- From: "Laurence Libin" <lelibin at optonline.net> To: ed440 at mindspring.com; caut at ptg.org Received: 4/13/2010 7:08:54 AM Subject: Re: [CAUT] temperament >Since you ask, I don't play piano very often but my wife does and she's happy with >whatever our RPT has been setting; we're not temperament snobs. However, I >strongly prefer nonequal temperaments on harpsichord (my instrument) because I >find ET bland for most 18th-century and earlier keyboard works. Since the tuning >has to suit the music being played, I necessarily like variety. I enjoy hearing a >familiar piece on different temperaments because sometimes these reveal >unexpected harmonic relationships. I've heard some recent copies of baroque >organs with temperaments so extreme that they're initially jarring, but they're fine >for music intended for them--but that repertoire is limited and takes getting used to. >Surprisingly, plenty of modern organ music sounds well on mildly unequal >temperaments. One of the things I so dislike about electronic organ and piano >substitutes is that their temperaments sound dead. On the other hand, when I listen >seriously to music I want to forget about temperament, fingering, all that technical >stuff, and just focus on the composer's ideas. Whatever a tuner or performer does >to facilitate that communication is fine with me. >So here are some questions for you: Do you prefer standardized, mass-produced >beer and wine or ones with marked character? Would you choose the same wine or >beer to accompany all your meals, or select ones that best complement each dish? >Laurence> >----- Original Message ----- > From: Ed Sutton > To: caut at ptg.org > Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:23 PM > Subject: Re: [CAUT] temperament > Laurence- > My experience is that people vary greatly in the ways they perceive temperament >and piano sound. Some are highly sensitive to changes of temperament and octave >size, others are not so sensitive. Either may be very musical or not. > Tuners can be very opinionated, and tend to report that people agree with their >particular ideologies. > The historical record is mostly vague enough to be at least tweaked in the direction >of ones prejudices. > So my concern is not to have an authoritative answer, but to listen carefully to >many performers' opinions and to try to respond sensitively to my customers. > That's why I'm asking: How do you like your piano tuned? Do you have a fixed >temperament you prefer, or do you like variety? Do you hear much difference, or is >it all pretty good? > Ed > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Laurence Libin > To: caut at ptg.org > Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:08 PM > Subject: [CAUT] temperament > Responding to Ed, organs can be more revealing of temperament because they >can sustain tones indefinitely, giving listeners time to hear beats, but mixture and >mutation stops confuse the aural picture (may I say that?). Since many organs were >tuned in meantone well into the 19th century, it would be interesting to investigate >whether some organ transcriptions were transposed to avoid wolfs (wolves?) in >certain tonalities. Possibly temperament matters least on clavichords because their >pitch fluctuates somewhat with touch/loudness (hence their ability to produce >vibrato), and often one pair of strings serves two or more pitches--but clavs are >designed to accommodate multiple fretting in particular temperaments. Harpsichord >temperament perhaps matters more than the modern piano's because so much >h'chord repertoire, at least through Rameau, depends on unequal tempering for >affect [sic]. How far this sensitivity to key color extended -- Mozart? Beethoven? -- >is anyone's guess. But guesses aren't data. > Laurence > On Apr 12, 2010, at 8:33 AM, Ed Sutton wrote: > Laury- > In my experience, the range of perception varies greatly from person to >person, and depends on repertoire and instrument as well. > The standard answer is that temperament doesn't matter much, but unisons >and octaves matter a lot. This, of course, is the rule of thumb for concert tuning >under time pressure. > Generalizations aren't very revealing, but individual responses can give us a >sense of what we should be prepared to facilitate. > Therefore, why don't you tell us about yourself, and your perceptions of >temperament on piano, organ and harpsichord? > Ed Sutton > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Laurence Libin > To: caut at ptg.org > Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 9:20 AM > Subject: Re: [CAUT] [SPAM] Re: using as ETD, was Re: Too tall!!?? > It would be interesting to compile and compare saved versions of pleasing >temperaments since this would indicate the range of today's acceptable variation >from true equal temperament. I wonder whether experienced listeners tolerate >wider variation in pianos than in pipe organs. > Laurence > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dr. Henry Nicolaides > To: College and University Technicians > Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 8:44 AM > Subject: Re: [CAUT] [SPAM] Re: using as ETD, was Re: Too tall!!?? > OK! I enjoy aural tuning, too. Especially on pianos that lend themselves to >this process and have the resultant outcome. Pleasing interplay of intervals, as you >described. But, due to time constraints and the previously mentioned stress >reduction reasons, I do not enjoy setting temperaments, stretching octaves, >tweaking and etc on the average home furniture called a piano. Nor do I enjoy the >aural process on practice room verticals and some small grands. Just as technology >has allowed the cardiologist to gain more usable information with "gadgets" I am sure >he/she enjoys listening to the heart with the traditional and old fashioned >stethoscope. Aural tuning only, is a luxury that I simply can not afford. Yes, I can >do it and enjoy the process. ETD's can get one so close that one a concert tuning >one can "tweak" if need be...then sit back a listen to the interplay. Five or so years >ago I experienced listening and comparing my aural tuning and then and ETD >(Verituner) on an older Kimball grand that I service two to three times a year. In >about half the time with the ETD I had a tuning that, I have to admit, was every bit >as pleasing (maybe not quite the same character) as my aural tuning. Now, the >tuning is saved and since I tune this piano fairly frequently I am quite happy to use >the ETD and be on my merry way to the next piano. > BTW, I use digital photography. I got out of the darkroom a long time ago, >although I still enjoy processing my own film and making prints on real photographic >paper. > Happy tuning! > Henry Nicolaides > Southern Illinois University >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > To: caut at ptg.org > Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 01:18:01 -0400 > From: tnrwim at aol.com > Subject: Re: [CAUT] [SPAM] Re: using as ETD, was Re: Too tall!!?? >I very muchenjoy setting a temperament, then tweaking it to make it sound the >verybest I can. I like your wording, "interplay of intervals." I liketuning octaves and >unisons and the checks used in octave tuning. I likewhat the piano sounds like when >I'm finished. Susan and Ed > This is where I think you two might have the wrong impression of what an >ETD can do for you. First of all, as has been cited, for a pitch raise, these things are >invaluable. Using the the machine leaves the piano almost exactly on pitch, (if you >do it right). On a regular tuning, using an ETD puts 99% of the piano right where it >should be. What is left, is exactly what you like to do. You can interplay with all the >intervals, and I would go out on a limb and say that it actually allow you to be an >even better tuning than you are now. I use my SAT to tune the whole piano. Then I >turn it off, and tune the whole piano again, aurally. I tweak every interval. When I >get done, I really like the piano when I'm finished, because I've put my personal >touch to it. > As far as the blinking lights are concerned, well, yes, Susan, I guess they >can be a little bit of a distraction. But, as you said, to each his/her own. > Wim > -----Original Message----- > From: Elwood Doss <edoss at utm.edu> > To: caut at ptg.org > Sent: Sun, Apr 11, 2010 5:50 pm > Subject: Re: [CAUT] [SPAM] Re: using as ETD, was Re: Too tall!!?? >Hi Susan,I'm with you all the way. It amazes me how many technicians who use >theETDs try to convince us aural tuners how wonderful they are. I tuneaurally >because I want to. Not because I'm afraid of technology, Wim.Its because I am >enthralled with being able to begin with one pitch andtune the whole piano just using >my ears and my intellect. I very muchenjoy setting a temperament, then tweaking it >to make it sound the verybest I can. I like your wording, "interplay of intervals." I >liketuning octaves and unisons and the checks used in octave tuning. I likewhat the >piano sounds like when I'm finished. I don't care whether it'sa Steinway D used on a >concert stage or a Henry F. Miller spinet that isto be played by a beginning piano >student. I put just as much effort intuning one as the other. I like to listen to the >finished product andrealize that, starting from a single pitch source, I tuned >that.Me...just me. No ETD, just me. If I started tuning at A1 and tuned upthe >chromatic scales to C88 using an ETD, then this shear joy wouldbecome >work...drudgery...I don't care how fast I could tune it or how"relaxed" I might be at >the end of the day. I'm sure there are plentyof piano technicians out there just like >us, Susan. May our tribeincrease! Oh, and Wim, am I afraid of technology? Well, >let's see, I use aSanderson Accu-Fork to get my A=440 pitch and to check how >sharp or flatthe piano is. Keeps me from having to have 3 hands. Nice >technology!Joy!ElwoodElwood Doss, Jr., M.Mus.Ed., RPTPiano Technician/Technical >DirectorDepartment of Music355 Clement HallThe University of Tennessee at >MartinMartin, TN 38238731/881-1852FAX: 731/881-7415HOME: >731/587-5700-----Original Message-----From: caut-bounces at ptg.org >[mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf OfSusan KlineSent: Saturday, April 10, >2010 11:59 PMTo: caut at ptg.orgSubject: [SPAM] Re: [CAUT] using as ETD, was Re: >Too tall!!??Importance: LowTo each his own, Wim.It's true I haven't tried using an >ETD myself, but I've watched tuning with one. It didn't look tempting to me.And I >hate blinky lights and twitching little readouts. I sometimes even turn off overhead >fluorescent lights because they bother me.But mainly, I like the direct contact with >the piano, and the interplayof intervals. I just like the sounds.Anyway, enjoy your >SAT IV.Susan >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. 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