The Aural vs. ETD debate is on! No one's mind will be changed. Gotta go tune a practice room piano. Joy! Elwood Rev. Elwood Doss, Jr., M. Mus. Ed., RPT Piano Technician/Technical Director Department of Music 355 Clement Hall University of Tennessee at Martin Martin, TN 38237 Office: 731/881-1852 Fax: 731/881-7415 Cell: 731/479-4043 From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Johnson Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 9:49 AM To: caut at ptg.org Subject: Re: [CAUT] using as ETD To all this I can add that many times in the past while doing master tunings "by committee" for the PTG exam we would get consensus for certain notes in the treble so everyone was happy, then I would measure the octave and point out the SAT suggests it might be smoother if we nudged it a little this or that. I would make the adjustment then ask if it's better or worse. Not always, but more times than not we all agreed the adjustment was an improvement. This is part of our normal routine now for tweaking master tunings, especially in the extreme treble, and I guess I consider that proof of the observation below. best, Dennis Johnson __________________ On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 8:04 AM, Jim Busby <jim_busby at byu.edu> wrote: Wim, Paul, I agree. I tuned aurally for about 20 years then about 12 years ago I bought a SAT. Hated it, for about a month anyway. Then, (and I REALLY don't want to start this ETD vs. aural debate!!), I measured my aural tunings and examined where some discrepancies were, and found that more often than not I actually agreed with the ETD. Sure, I'm confident that my aural tunings are solid, but my opinion is this; nearly every ETD tuning can be enhanced by good aural listening/tweaking, and every aural tuning can be smoothed out or improved by careful examination using an ETD. So there. I said it. Don Mannino did an excellent class about tuning and showed a graph of the same piano with his best aural tuning and then with an ETD. Different. The ETD curve was smoother and nearly perfect, whereas the aural curve was "bumpy". Was one better? I dunno. Don seemed to agree that both are good, especially combined, and that an ETD is only another tool in our box. I do know that sometimes when I've only got one nerve left and there's lots of noise around where I'm tuning that my ETD has probably saved the lives of many custodians and small children... Jim Busby BYU From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of tnrwim at aol.com Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 10:02 PM To: caut at ptg.org Subject: [CAUT] using as ETD, was Re: Too tall!!?? hey Jeff..I'm strictly aural, so your message, though helpful to some, is all Greek to me. Someday, I'll fall to the great gadgets out there. thanks Paul Paul I would highly recommend you get yourself a gadget. I can almost guarantee that it will greatly reduce your stress level. You might even be able to tune all the pianos you want to tune very week, and still have time to do the repairs you so desperately need to take care of. About 20 years ago, my wife, who had been using a SAT, had to stop tuning because of a bad elbow. I had been an aural tuner up until then. I didn't want that $1200 gadget to sit on a shelve, so I decided to start using it. Almost immediately I could feel my stress level go down. In the past, every fall, between church and work, I was a total stressed out wreck by the time Christmas came around. But the year I used the SAT, I actually enjoyed Christmas. I know it sounds like a lot of money, and there is a learning curve, but trust me, it will be one of the best investments you'll ever make, and you'll be so happy you got one. Wim Wim -----Original Message----- From: Paul T Williams <pwilliams4 at unlnotes.unl.edu> To: Jeff Tanner <tannertuner at bellsouth.net>; caut at ptg.org Sent: Fri, Apr 9, 2010 9:24 am Subject: Re: [CAUT] Too tall!!?? hey Jeff..I'm strictly aural, so your message, though helpful to some, is all Greek to me. Someday, I'll fall to the great gadgets out there. thanks Paul From: "Jeff Tanner" <tannertuner at bellsouth.net> To: <caut at ptg.org> Date: 04/09/2010 01:43 PM Subject: Re: [CAUT] Too tall!!?? ________________________________ Hi Paul, Been out of town, so I know I'm coming in late on this. If you have SAT III (I don't know about IV), you can also experiment with the library tunings for these two pianos, and not just a new FAC. Those would be pages 135 (B) and 138 (D). The tunings that come from the factory were calculated with the old mathematical curve used by SAT II, and you get very different results -- usually less stretched -- than with a new FAC. Another option is to use the F4 tuning function, which only calculates from C3-F6, then match the bass and high treble aurally, or however you'd like, and quite often your FAC will even work just fine. Good chance that F4 of both pianos has a similar F4 stretch, but I don't have any handy to check right now. I often prefer the temperament of the middle of the piano when I just use the F4 temperament, and because the partials change at F#, rather than at the Cs, you're at the fundamental at F#5-B5, which clears up the lights considerably through that section. Other than these additional thoughts, I agree mostly with just tuning them to their FACs and not worrying about it. Too much experience with expert musicians who can't hear the difference to worry about a cent or two that only we will notice. I once did 6 Baldwin Hamiltons together for a performance, that there wasn't time to actually syncronize their tuning for. I thought they sounded horrible, but I was out of time. All I heard were accolades about that. Jeff Tanner ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul T Williams <mailto:pwilliams4 at unlnotes.unl.edu> To: CAUTlist <mailto:caut at ptg.org> Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 5:24 PM Subject: [CAUT] Too tall!!?? Hi all. this is a new one for me. The Liszt Fest has started here at UNL through Saturday. I just got a message from the stage manager. The pianists say the piano is too tall! It's on a piano truck. What would I have them do....saw off a 1/2" of the legs? (LOL) I'm thinking a half inch base under the lyre and bench (although it's adjustable) and paint them black. Also, on another note; How do you all like to tune two pianos together? One venue has a Baldwin D and Steinway D together, the other venue has a Steinway D and B to be tuned together on Friday (UGH!) I've done my usual for the 2 9'-ers but; Any tips on the 9' and 7' together would be great help. I've never been happy with those two pianos together, but that's my only choice. 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