Inre my description of Steinway's rim bending being changed over the years, Benjamin Sloane writes: >>From my recollection, though, it was not a whole lot different than what Mason & Hamlin does the cost of which is comparable to Steinway. The two-rim process has drawbacks. You have moved pianos, haven’t you Ed? Why do we not respond as critically to Mason & Hamlin? << The discussion was pertaining to changes Steinway has made to their pianos, specifically. The change from hot hide animal glue to thermoplastic glue for rim construction was one point. And to that point, I suggest that bending maple with hot, wet glue will yield a different degree of internal stress than using a glue with much less moisture and then curing it with hi-frequency. >>The two-rim process only makes a job already too difficult for so many performers, moving the piano, even more difficult. << I cannot make the connection between the rim construction and difficulty for performers. And Steinways are built with one rim, the bottom of which is thicker. (I don't know how a soundboard would be mounted another way). >> but slowing the curing process has drawbacks too. For instance, if using slower drying bonding materials, there is greater risk of the rim losing shape after removal of cauls. << Risk is the sort of thing that causes avoidance-based compromises. This is not necessarily a good thing for acoustical performance. The point was that Steinway built its reputation on a construction that is no longer in use. As to Mason's centripedal resonator: >> As commonly observed on Mason & Hamlin pianos built in the late 19th and early 20th century, the Crown Retention System has preserved the crown of the soundboard, and the original power and tone, throughout the life of the piano.<< And that life is determined by the viability of the soundboard, so that seems a little circular. I have observed quite a few Mason & Hamlins from the teens and twenties that had flat boards, and all cracked to pieces, too. >>Don't you think a lighter alternative like Steinway has obvious advantages? The price legitimates the comparison. Why rag on Steinway about this, and not observe the disadvantages of other pricey alternatives?<< The discussion was pertaining to changes Steinway has made to their pianos, specifically. The point wasn't dealing with weight, it was specifically made about adhesive changing the acoustical qualities. I also said: “Hammers that bear little resemblance to vintage ones,(molding wood, density, lacquer, consistancy, size).” >>This is a nebulous statement. What wood should be used? Should the hammers be more or less dense? If there is consistency, it is in the hammer density. These are the softest hammers available, we all know this. Is hardening the hammers wrong? Right? << Modern, fluffy, lacquered hammers on large maple moldings do not sound like older, denser, unlacquered felt on much smaller mahogany molding. >>Have you never heard a recording of Horowitz? Should the hammers be bigger, or smaller, and for which model?<< I have examined Horowitz's piano, intimately, both before and after the "restoration". In its original form, it sounded like a tin can, (and his later recordings didn't impress me with a tonal palette, either). He was about as neurotic an artist that has ever walked, his genius was in performance, but I don't know of another pianist that would have been happy with his piano as he had it set up. “Why are the plates thicker?” << Maybe it has something to do with the fact that so many rebuilders refuse to fasten the new pin-block to the stretcher bar? Have you visited the foundry in Springfield also? It is not too far from Cincinnati; that is an interesting tour also. They could answer better then I. Perhaps now that Steinway owns it, they decided to improve plate construction by making the plate thicker, without having to deal with a company trying to save money by using less material?<< Or maybe it was to reduce the number of unusable castings due to warpage and breakage. And acoustically, a thicker plate is not necessarily a better sounding one. So perhaps it was cheaper to make them thicker, impedance governed response be damned. I don't think they made a heavier plate because rebuilders are not attaching blocks to stretchers. I think it is in McFerrin's book on the piano conferences of the 1920's that plates were discussed, the general consensus was that too much iron compromised the sound. “Zero friction sounds like a great idea, but why does the tone improve when repinned with firmer pinning?” >> Notwithstanding your penchant for hyperbole, at least Zero friction would be consistent. It was all over the place. At least half a dozen barely swung three times, another few dozen, thirty times. The observation of Sturm, that “I think the factory guys need to learn to travel shanks better, and hang hammers more squarely,” probably led to excessive need for burning, and therefore, the flanges got screwed up. I don’t understand how else it could have been so awful.<< It could be the quality of the felt, the expertise of the worker that soaks them, the length of time they were allowed to dry before the sizing pins were replaced, or anything else. I don't know, nor do I care. The Steinway parts I have used in the past were the most inconsistant I have found, so I don't use them. >> In general, the new Steinway has a reputation for loose action centers.<snip> Loose action centers with “Zero friction” are a necessary evil for Steinway.<< Necessary if they are to meet a price point,yes. However, there are other brands that seem to have gotten around this. “The alignment of older pianos I have owned and also examined,(hundreds,by now) is head an shoulders above current production.” >>This is more vagaries. Alignment can be attributed to so many things. What specifically are you talking about? << I am talking about how well the whippens align with knuckles, how well shanks align with rest cushions, how well keys align with underlevers, how well capstans align with whippens. How well hammers align with the strings,(there is that traveling thing, again). How well the stack was aligned with the key geometry, etc. >>When you do an action job on a pre-WW2 Steinway, are you using the old hammers as a speck for shank distance, seeing these had no alignment problems? I can answer in just the same vague way: The alignment on the new Steinways is better than on the old Steinways.<< The pre war pianos' hammers were more often in the right place, I think more care was taken in the forefinishing department. You are the first non-factory employee I have heard say that the new ones are built with more care than the earlier ones. "Case in point, Vanderbilt had a new soundboard installed in one of our D's at the factory. When it came back, I found that all the bridge notches were cut behind the pins. The stringing was so full of false beats that I have been replacing wire, ( 20 treble strings between G5 and C8). And why do I have three pins in the low bass with less than 70 in/lbs of torque? Why are there tuning pins leaning like the tower of Pisa scattered among the pin field? I never saw this level of carelessness in the pre war pianos. >>This is the same kind of nonsense that I was talking about. Why do rebuilders scream bloody murder when somebody screws up a rebuild? Everyone lays eggs once and a while, or is in denial. You sell it to someone who wants furniture, and can’t play. << Um, this was a concert instrument at a major university, we didn't spend $13,500 so that we could sell it to someone else. The only nonsense here is the logic being used to excuse poor craftsmanship. And excusing the "standard piano of the world" by saying everyone lays an egg once in a while beggars my imagination. >>False beating dissipates the farther you get from the piano. How much aural tuning do you do? << Every unision I have ever tuned, (32 years X 600 pianos each X 78 unisons X 2 strings = almost 3 million times). I think I am familiar with false beats. >>The problem is other types of pianos don’t have enough sustain g5-c8 for what we may dub false beating to even begin, the price we pay for non-sustaining instrument that actually rings for a while before the sound ends.<< I can only think that you are confused. Ed Foote RPT http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/index.html www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html <BR><BR><BR>**************<BR>A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221621490x1201450102/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx %3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DAprilfooter421NO62)</HTML>
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