Chris, Without the search for what constituted the historical instrument, and who might have played it and written for it, we might not know if preservation is important. But even without that, the Steinways that won the big Paris expositions weren't the modern Steinways of the 1880s, but the "Style _" Steinways. The exposure the pianos got, and the stature Steinway began achieving, was due to these transitional instruments. Well...almost...Now we know that William Steinway was willing to provide Professor Fetis with more special rewards than Chickering, but that doesn't make any difference now, and that story just makes the history more interesting. Major "weaknesses" in the piano during Steinway's first 20 years also make it more interesting, considering the context and the rapid evolution of the design elements. Bill In a message dated 2/16/2005 4:20:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Chris Solliday" <solliday@ptd.net> writes: >Amen Greg, but you know speaking of the orignial point of this discussion, >wouldn't one have to find music that needed historical recreation as it was >on that transitional design Steinway, which I don't think exists, which is >why I stick by my original statement, update the design and replace as much >as possible to best serve the normal customer. oh and do a great job, >nothing shoddy please that may lead to cries of freak or messy or >bastardized. You're right Ed just a couple more days and we'll... Chris S > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Greg Granoff" <gjg2@humboldt.edu> >To: "College and University Technicians" <caut@ptg.org> >Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 12:17 PM >Subject: Re: [CAUT] Steinway Style II Grand > > >> No problem... >> You are right about the difference between good repros and tired old >> originals, which are probably best left to museums as a way to get a clear >> view of technical developments as time went along --although this is very >> important as well, I feel. I should not have equated original instruments >> with reproductions. >> And I totally agree about the "mythical market" you speak of created by >> clueless owners who imagine that anything made anywhere in the 19th >century >> is by definition a valuable antique. They hold technicians and restorers >> hostage to an imagined outcome that usually doesn't exist. These people >> have neither the collector/curator's sense of ethics and perspective >> regarding historical value, nor the musician's or technician's >appreciation >> of the differences in behavior and sound born of design. >> I think its important to note, however, that while it is one thing to >build >> a reproduction of a late 18th century fortepiano from scratch, but quite >> another to copy a late-ish 19th century piano such as the Steinway style >II >> which started this discussion. Since such a project is (at this time, >> anyway) extremely unlikely to happen, one could argue from a curator's >> perspective that it would be more appropriate to conserve a piano like >that >> and find something else to enjoy playing--although in this case I admit >I'm >> on the fence.... >> >> Greg >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Chris Solliday" <solliday@ptd.net> >> To: <caut@ptg.org> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 10:01 PM >> Subject: Fw: [CAUT] Steinway Style II Grand >> >> >> > just in case this didn't get through the first time, please excuse the >> > department of redundancy for any redundancy. Chris S >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Chris Solliday" <solliday@ptd.net> >> > To: "College and University Technicians" <caut@ptg.org> >> > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 12:46 AM >> > Subject: Re: [CAUT] Steinway Style II Grand >> > >> > >> > > I agree with all this rationale except the difference between repros >and >> > > "original." "Original" is a challenge not looked forward to by the >> players >> > > of the era that historical performance tries to recreate. I'm sure >> players >> > > of that time were looking for the best instruments available, not some >> old >> > > stressed out piece of wood surrounded by crusty buckskin and motheaten >> > felt, >> > > and dare I leave out the metal. My opinion, of course humble, is that >> this >> > > so called "original instrument" concept just creates a mythical market >> for >> > > the owners of some horrendous old dogs and unfortunately it obscures >and >> > > reduces the opportunities to hear the rather charming performance >> > available >> > > on reproductions, and not to mention reduces this important market. My >> hat >> > > is off to builders of repros, fortepianos, harpsichords and >clavichords >> > and >> > > the performers who have the integrity and wisdom to perform/recreate >> > > historical music on instruments of the same relative age as when the >> music >> > > was orginally performed. "the one armed piano tuner" Chris Solliday >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > From: "Greg Granoff" <gjg2@humboldt.edu> >> > > To: "College and University Technicians" <caut@ptg.org> >> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 3:37 PM >> > > Subject: Re: [CAUT] Steinway Style II Grand >> > > >> > > >> > > > I believe Conrad makes an important point here. This isn't really >> about >> > > > what vintage of piano is an "improvement" over which other vintage. >> We >> > > have >> > > > a Bach scholar here who is a harpsichordist/fortepianist who was one >> of >> > > the >> > > > people most influential in the "period performance" movement in San >> > > > Francisco when it began in the 60's. She owns a modern piano and >> enjoys >> > > it >> > > > as much as the next person. However, she is always quick to point >out >> > > that >> > > > period instruments, whether original or copies, playing and sounding >> as >> > > they >> > > > would have when new (we hope) are like fascinating time machines. >As >> > she >> > > > puts it, they "send us messages" directly from the past that tell us >> > > > important things about the music written for them, as well as the >> > > > experiences and feelings and judgements of the listeners and >> performers >> > of >> > > > the day as they moved about in their particular sonic world. Modern >> > > > pianists sometimes wonder why Beethoven often wrote such close chord >> > > > voicings in the bass cleff. They sound like mud on a modern grand, >> but >> > > are >> > > > perfectly understandable on a Viennese fortepiano of the day. Many >of >> > the >> > > > bow gestures inherent in period style baroque string playing that >are >> so >> > > > necessary to the vividness and emotion of that sound did not become >> > > apparent >> > > > till people began using the lighter, lower tension Baroque bows, and >> so >> > > on. >> > > > For this reason, I myself, and many others I'm sure would feel >cheated >> > out >> > > > of a very dynamic sense of our own cultural past if no one ever >> > performed >> > > on >> > > > period instruments and all obsolete instruments were updated. >> > > > >> > > > Just my 2 cents as well. >> > > > >> > > > Greg >> > > > >> > > > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > > From: "Conrad Hoffsommer" <hoffsoco@luther.edu> >> > > > To: "College and University Technicians" <caut@ptg.org> >> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 11:55 AM >> > > > Subject: Re: [CAUT] Steinway Style II Grand >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > At 13:05 2/15/2005, you wrote: >> > > > > >Wouldn't it be great to see Chris argue his point with Malcolm >> > Bilson. >> > > > > >Might turn into a slug fest! :-) Having lived here in Ithaca (the >> > land >> > > of >> > > > > >historical performance practice) for some time, I find listening >to >> > > music >> > > > > >performed on historical instruments interesting at least for an >> > > academic >> > > > > >standpoint. And, occasionally it is a great musical experience. >> > Cornell >> > > > > >has a couple of pianos from the mid 1800's that sound very good >and >> > > when >> > > > > >played by a skilled pianist, can be very rewarding to hear. Just >my >> > > > humble >> > > > > >opinion. >> > > > > > >> > > > > >Don >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> I may as well take this opportunity to come out of the closet >> and >> > > > > >> reveal my bias, actually a pet peave, just to be fair. In case >> > anyone >> > > > > >> wasn't catching the drift, I have almost no use for historical >> > > > > >> instruments. I can't imagine any musician of the day, say Franz >> > > Liszt, >> > > > > >> looking for "the good old piano." Most often professional >> pianists, >> > > > > >> unless they are looking for novelty, or are overcome with this >> > absurd >> > > > > >> nostalgia for "original instruments," look for the best new >piano >> > > they >> > > > > >> can find. 'Cause the design is up to date and the parts are new >> and >> > > it >> > > > > >> plays like they expect. Everything else is ANOMALY. And unless >> your >> > > > > >> customer is of that ilk I'd stick to I-95. (I do make one >notable >> > > > > >> exception and that is reproductions. They make for wonderful >> > > > > >> "Historical" concerts although I do think the whole concept is >a >> > bit >> > > > > >> hysterical). Of course Stephen, be attentive to what Bill Shull >> and >> > > > > >> others are warning of cause this isn't I-95, but get as close >as >> > you >> > > > can >> > > > > >> and a "NORMAL" customer will be happy. And BTW, sorry Bill, >we're >> > > full >> > > > > >> at MARC and printed for this year, but I have forwarded your >> > > shameless >> > > > > >> self invitation to Steve and Paul and will put in a good word >for >> > > you. >> > > > > >>Best to All, >> > > > > >> Chris Solliday >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > I really like Ansel Adams' black and white photography. >> > > > > Ansel Adams had access to color film. >> > > > > >> > > > > I like Mozart on the fortepiano. >> > > > > I have access to 9' grand pianos. >> > > > > >> > > > > Mozart didn't have the sound of a 9' concert grand in mind when he >> was >> > > > > composing. >> > > > > He did have access to fortepiani. >> > > > > >> > > > > As well as pianists can interpret Mozart on a 9', they can NEVER >> > > duplicate >> > > > > what Mozart had in mind. >> > > > > >> > > > > my biased 2˘ >> > > > > >> > > > > Conrad >> > > > > (just finished tuning two harpsichords...) >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > > caut list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > caut list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > caut list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> caut list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >caut list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives >
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