From nhunt@jagat.com Thu Nov 2 03:00:00 2000 From: nhunt@jagat.com (Newton Hunt) Date: Wed Nov 1 20:00 MST 2000 Subject: [Fwd: New Cordless Piano Light] I got this in my mailbox. Did any of you get it? Newton -------- Original Message -------- Subject: New Cordless Piano Light Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 21:14:27 -0800 From: ConcertLight Reply-To: lampcraft@earthlink.net To: nhunt@jagat.com Dear Music Lover: Just wanted to let you know that the ConcertLight now fits grand pianos and wooden furniture stands -- allowing more musicians to benefit from superior lighting and cordless convenience. When we introduced the ConcertLight early this year, we had no idea that pianists would want, or need, a portable light -- that's why it was designed for metal music stands. So we were astounded when countless piano players and instructors asked us if it would work on a piano music rest. Now, finally, it does. Did you know that most musicians today depend on the same type of music lights that were in common usage prior to the second world war? You're familiar with them -- a primitive 40 watt incandescent lamp that bathes the center of the score in a hot-spot of yellowish light and barely lights up the corners of the pages. When it's critical to see the music, why settle for bad lighting? It can contribute to performance anxiety, eyestrain, missed notes and even headaches. ConcertLight was designed to provide superior illumination AND operate on a rechargeable battery pack. If you'll take a few moments to visit our web site and check it out, we'll make a $1 contribution to an organization of your choice that is working to improve music education in the schools. An unusual offer? Yes, but we'd like to get your attention. Originally we designed the ConcertLight for situations where there was no light available or no place to plug a music light in. Instead, we've found many musicians use the ConcertLight even when electricity is readily available because, unlike the traditional bare filament corded lights, ConcertLight provides superior, balanced, glare-free illumination. The cordless aspect is a bonus -- theres no power cord to trip over during a performance! Play anywhere, anytime -- just charge the battery pack and it's ready to go. If you're interested, we invite you to check out the ConcertLight AND have us make a contribution to music education. Just visit our web site at http://www.lampcraft.com/$ AOL Users: Click Here (From the home page, click on "Donate $1" to choose the organization to receive the contribution.) The ConcertLight features a foot-long lamp emitting daylight color temperature light that illuminates an oversize score evenly, from corner to corner. No hotspots; no glare. Music yellowing with age, even penciled mark-ups are much easier to see. It includes a rechargeable battery pack, built-in charger and AC adapter and will run off regular household current as well as its battery. ConcertLight was specially designed for the musician. With ConcertLight you'll see the music clearly, end eyestrain, eliminate the anxiety of struggling to see the notes and, ultimately, enhance the joy of performance. Thanks for your time, Alan Medak and Rich Puz LampCraft 1-800-277-5527 PS: Whether the ConcertLight is right for you or not, we bet there are at least a few musicians you know who are more sensitive to poor lighting. Do them a favor and pass this message along. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To be removed from this mailing list, please reply to this message with "Remove" and your e-mail address in the subject line. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ConcertLight - High Quality, Cordless, Rechargeable Music Stand Light Play anywhere, anytime. No plugs, no cord. http://www.lampcraft.com/$ From hgreeley@stanford.edu Thu Nov 2 03:38:00 2000 From: hgreeley@stanford.edu (Horace Greeley) Date: Wed Nov 1 20:38 MST 2000 Subject: [Fwd: New Cordless Piano Light] Newton, At 01:04 PM 11/1/00 -0500, you wrote: >I got this in my mailbox. Did any of you get it? Yep. Interesting that earthlink is one of the more aggressive ISPs in terms of blocking specific kinds of ports and/or traffic to prevent spamming...Also interesting is to contemplate which of the _many_ "professional" organizations to which you belong sold your address (and mine...). Still, the product looks cool. Horace From remoody@midstatesd.net Thu Nov 2 07:49:00 2000 From: remoody@midstatesd.net (Richard Moody) Date: Thu Nov 2 00:49 MST 2000 Subject: A-440 Policy? ----- Original Message ----- From: Mitch Staples To: Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 2:29 PM Subject: Re: A-440 Policy? > At 10:04 PM 10/30/00 -0600, you wrote: > > > > > >. I would push for a policy of A-440 only, accept we have a Taiwanese > >> percussion student with a marimba tuned at A-442. > >> > >> Mitch > > > >And I thought the 442 marimba was so tuned because it sounded better with > >the piano with sharp partials > > Richard, > > I was not aware of this practice of tuning an instrument to a higher pitch > so it will sound better with a piano. This particular instrument was built > to be played in an ensemble tuned at A-442. Do you think there are other > instruments that are made to be tuned at A-442 but played with instruments > tuned at A-440? > > Mitch I should have posted this as a question. I thought I heard or read somewhere that marimbas sounding in tune ended up sharp when measured by machines. They weren't made to be sharp but that is what machines discovered. That glockenspeils and xylophones were either sharp sounding in tune, or had to be tuned sharp to sound better with the ensemble. That the marimba was tuned (measured) sharp to sound better with a piano may have been an issue with automated instruments like the band organ or nickelodian. So does any of this ring a bell with anyone else? ---ric From ilvey@jps.net Thu Nov 2 07:54:00 2000 From: ilvey@jps.net (David Ilvedson) Date: Thu Nov 2 00:54 MST 2000 Subject: [Fwd: New Cordless Piano Light] Yep! Roundfile... > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-caut@ptg.org [mailto:owner-caut@ptg.org]On Behalf Of Newton > Hunt > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 10:04 AM > To: caut@ptg.org > Subject: [Fwd: New Cordless Piano Light] > > > I got this in my mailbox. Did any of you get it? > > Newton > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: New Cordless Piano Light > Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 21:14:27 -0800 > From: ConcertLight > Reply-To: lampcraft@earthlink.net > To: nhunt@jagat.com > > Dear Music Lover: > > Just wanted to let you know that the ConcertLight now fits > grand pianos and > wooden furniture stands -- allowing more musicians to > benefit from superior > lighting and cordless convenience. > > When we introduced the ConcertLight early this year, we had > no idea that > pianists would want, or need, a portable light -- that's why > it was designed > for metal music stands. So we were astounded when countless > piano players > and instructors asked us if it would work on a piano music > rest. Now, > finally, it does. > > Did you know that most musicians today depend on the same > type of music > lights that were in common usage prior to the second world > war? You're > familiar with them -- a primitive 40 watt incandescent lamp > that bathes the center > of the score in a hot-spot of yellowish light and barely > lights up the > corners of the pages. When it's critical to see the music, > why settle for bad > lighting? It can contribute to performance anxiety, > eyestrain, missed notes > and even headaches. > > ConcertLight was designed to provide superior illumination > AND operate on a > rechargeable battery pack. If you'll take a few moments to > visit our web > site and check it out, we'll make a $1 contribution to an > organization of > your choice that is working to improve music education in > the schools. > > An unusual offer? Yes, but we'd like to get your attention. > > Originally we designed the ConcertLight for situations where > there was no > light available or no place to plug a music light in. > Instead, we've found > many musicians use the ConcertLight even when electricity is > readily > available because, unlike the traditional bare filament > corded lights, ConcertLight > provides superior, balanced, glare-free illumination. The > cordless aspect > is a bonus -- theres no power cord to trip over during a > performance! Play > anywhere, anytime -- just charge the battery pack and it's > ready to go. > > If you're interested, we invite you to check out the > ConcertLight AND > have us make a contribution to music education. Just visit > our web site at > http://www.lampcraft.com/$ > > AOL Users: Click Here > > (From the home page, click on "Donate $1" to choose the > organization to > receive the contribution.) > > The ConcertLight features a foot-long lamp emitting daylight > color > temperature light that illuminates an oversize score evenly, > from corner to corner. > No hotspots; no glare. Music yellowing with age, even > penciled mark-ups > are much easier to see. It includes a rechargeable battery > pack, built-in > charger and AC adapter and will run off regular household > current as well as > its battery. > > ConcertLight was specially designed for the musician. With > ConcertLight > you'll see the music clearly, end eyestrain, eliminate the > anxiety of > struggling to see the notes and, ultimately, enhance the joy > of performance. > > Thanks for your time, > > Alan Medak and Rich Puz > LampCraft > 1-800-277-5527 > > PS: Whether the ConcertLight is right for you or not, we bet > there are at > least a few musicians you know who are more sensitive to > poor lighting. Do > them a favor and pass this message along. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To be removed from this mailing list, please reply to this > message with > "Remove" and your e-mail address in the subject line. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ConcertLight - High Quality, Cordless, Rechargeable Music > Stand Light > Play anywhere, anytime. No plugs, no cord. > http://www.lampcraft.com/$ > > > From skolnik@attglobal.net Thu Nov 2 07:55:00 2000 From: skolnik@attglobal.net (David Skolnik) Date: Thu Nov 2 00:55 MST 2000 Subject: [Fwd: New Cordless Piano Light] Horace, Newton, The post is correctly targeted It lists a website It probably isn't pornographic It has real names (I suppose) It has real phone numbers It makes charitable donations Hard to call that spam >To be removed from this mailing list, please reply to this >message with >"Remove" and your e-mail address in the subject line. NOW THAT'S SPAM! David Skolnik At 07:37 PM 11/01/2000 -0800, you wrote: > >Newton, > >At 01:04 PM 11/1/00 -0500, you wrote: >>I got this in my mailbox. Did any of you get it? > >Yep. > >Interesting that earthlink is one of the more aggressive ISPs in terms of >blocking specific kinds of ports and/or traffic to prevent spamming...Also >interesting is to contemplate which of the _many_ "professional" >organizations to which you belong sold your address (and mine...). > >Still, the product looks cool. > >Horace > From ilvey@jps.net Thu Nov 2 08:22:00 2000 From: ilvey@jps.net (David Ilvedson) Date: Thu Nov 2 01:22 MST 2000 Subject: [Fwd: New Cordless Piano Light] $129? Seems a bit expensive... David I. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-caut@ptg.org [mailto:owner-caut@ptg.org]On Behalf Of Horace > Greeley > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 7:37 PM > To: caut@ptg.org > Subject: Re: [Fwd: New Cordless Piano Light] > > > > Newton, > > At 01:04 PM 11/1/00 -0500, you wrote: > >I got this in my mailbox. Did any of you get it? > > Yep. > > Interesting that earthlink is one of the more aggressive ISPs in terms of > blocking specific kinds of ports and/or traffic to prevent > spamming...Also > interesting is to contemplate which of the _many_ "professional" > organizations to which you belong sold your address (and mine...). > > Still, the product looks cool. > > Horace > > > From dmckech@ithaca.edu Thu Nov 2 15:26:00 2000 From: dmckech@ithaca.edu (Donald McKechnie) Date: Thu Nov 2 08:26 MST 2000 Subject: Guidelines, etc. List, Like David, I also wanted to respond to the Guidelines thread earlier but life does indeed get in the way sometimes. Besides all the great technical discussions on this list, it is a great opportunity for one to find solutions to your budgetary and assistance problems. Please keep up the discussion. It will also help the CAUT committee greatly in deciding which way to go with the revisions. The Guidelines will never work the same for everyone no matter how we revise the document. But, it was never intended that it could. Tom McNeil said as much in a similar thread not long ago. Please read the introduction and you will see that the document is defined as a guide to help technicians and administrators. One must come up with your own justifications and solutions because each institution is different. Jeff, apparently I did not train your dean well enough. Sorry about that, let’s talk. J You are correct; one cannot compare apples to apples. Not much sense in that. Technicians and administrators at each institution must come up with solutions, not just keep up with the neighbors. Comparing what other schools are doing can be part of the justification but not the whole. At the end there is always the bottom line (what can the school spend on the program), but what are the goals and the values of the school? When a school can figure out all aspects to the problem the program will succeed. The Guidelines formula is certainly a problem when presented to administrators. I believe that it needs to be flexible to the given situation. Change the base number to 80 or 100 if you have to. No, it is not ideal but you have to do whatever works. I still believe that the Guidelines can be revised and beefed up a bit. The idea is to give as much help to everyone as possible. If you get a little help from the document, it was worth the time spent by all those who have developed it. You may remember my mentioning the Robert Weirich article in the September issue of Clavier magazine about the state of "conservatory" pianos. I wrote a response to the article and I am told it will be printed in the November or December issue. My hope is that this will be the beginning of a dialog with technicians, faculty and administrators. Below is the letter that will be printed in Clavier. I was told that it would not be shortened for space and other responses to the article will be printed. In the letter I made reference to the annual in Reno. At the time I thought something could be pulled together for the CAUT forum but time has run out to do anything substantial for next year. Also, I believe that Chicago in 2002 is a better location geographically for the event I propose. This will be a good time and place to have a Summit on the Piano in Academia. The idea is to get technicians, faculty, administrators and piano manufacturers all in one place for a day for discussions, workshops and classes. The CAUT committee will be talking about this proposal but any input greatly appreciated. Don McKechnie Ithaca College Let’s Get This Problem Out of the Woods! I am writing in response to Robert Weirich’s article "Out of the Woods" published in the September 2000 issue. On behalf of all piano technicians who do institutional work, I want to thank Dr. Weirich and Clavier magazine for his important message. For more than a decade, the College and University Technicians Committee (CAUT) of the Piano Technicians Guild (PTG) has been working on the issues Dr. Weirich addresses so well. It is heartening to see a highly respected musician and pianist talk about the piano maintenance problems encountered in so many schools. There are conservatories, colleges and universities in the United States and Canada that have successfully taken on the challenges of proper piano maintenance, but they are in the minority. In 1990 the CAUT Committee published "The Guidelines for Effective Institutional Piano Maintenance. (For a hardcopy, contact The Piano Technicians Guild at: 816/753-7747 or ptg@ptg.org. To view the Guidelines and obtain a database to use the Guidelines formula go to: http://www.mursuky.edu/caut/guidlines_pg.htm) Although the CAUT Committee is currently in the process of revising this document, it still has a wealth of information for technicians, professors and administrators to assist them in the justification for expenditures that they are seeking. Piano manufactures are gradually realizing that it is in their best interests also to get involved in these issues. Steinway has published Institutional Guidelines in a software format, yet another useful tool to justify your needs. (Contact Steinway representative Gary Green, 800/366-1853) The CAUT committee is revising its Guidelines to find new, creative ways to lend support to our convictions. The document also needs to address the problem that many schools have: no full-time piano technician on staff. Of course, there are schools that cannot afford full-time technicians due to the size of their programs, but the budget problems for adequate piano maintenance are the same. Administrators and Boards of Trustees have an enormous challenge to decide spending priorities. It is often those that can clearly define their priorities that will get the attention of Boards and Administrators. If you can show that in the long run the school will loose money, you may suddenly see your needs become a higher priority. Also, no school likes to experience the loss of prestige that can occur if a music program deteriorates due to poorly maintained instruments. It is our hope that many more piano professors and performers recognize the urgency in this matter. Organizing is key to making inroads. Members of the PTG are prepared to meet with the many organizations that are linked with academia to discuss the issues that Dr. Weirich addressed. We will be happy to attend any teacher’s conference for dialog around these issues. The PTG has an annual international conference each year. The CAUT Committee usually plans an entire day of activities devoted to our concerns and expanding our knowledge. We would be glad to meet with any delegation from teachers’ organizations to talk about and build strategies for our mutual issues. Our next annual conference will be held in Reno, Nevada July 11-15, 2001. In 1990 the CAUT Committee attempted to get The National Association of Schools of Music (NASM) to recognize our Guidelines in some fashion. Although we were not successful in 1990, we will attempt to dialog with them again when our Guidelines revisions are finished. By persuading a body such as NASM that the CAUT Guidelines are a valuable tool, we can gain much momentum. With teachers, piano technicians and piano manufacturers uniting, we will be able to see real progress in the quality of institutional piano maintenance. Sincerely yours, Donald R. McKechnie Staff Piano Technician at Ithaca College Chair, CAUT Committee of the PTG From dporritt@post.cis.smu.edu Thu Nov 2 17:06:00 2000 From: dporritt@post.cis.smu.edu (David M. Porritt) Date: Thu Nov 2 10:06 MST 2000 Subject: Guidelines, etc. Don: Is the original Weirich artical available on line? dave David M. Porritt dporritt@swbell.net Meadows School of the Arts Southern Methodist University Dallas, TX 75275 From hgreeley@stanford.edu Thu Nov 2 17:40:00 2000 From: hgreeley@stanford.edu (Horace Greeley) Date: Thu Nov 2 10:40 MST 2000 Subject: [Fwd: New Cordless Piano Light] Hi, David, I guess I did not say things clearly enough - for me, spam is mail I do not solicit, regardless of source. The product looks cool, but I did not authorize anyone to sell my address on the net, any more than I do business with companies who sell my USPS address to mail order firms (without specific authorization). I am glad that they are making charitable donations, but it is rather like the shell game that most state lotteries have become..."Let's help the schools! Only, let's not tell anyone that less than 20 cents on a dollar get there." For $129 - $179 per unit, plus batteries and carrying case, they should be donating a fin, at least. So, I am an old fuddy-duddy. More later. Horace At 12:26 AM 11/2/00 -0500, you wrote: >Horace, Newton, >The post is correctly targeted >It lists a website >It probably isn't pornographic >It has real names (I suppose) >It has real phone numbers >It makes charitable donations > >Hard to call that spam > >>To be removed from this mailing list, please reply to this >>message with >>"Remove" and your e-mail address in the subject line. > >NOW THAT'S SPAM! > > >David Skolnik > > > > > > >At 07:37 PM 11/01/2000 -0800, you wrote: >> >>Newton, >> >>At 01:04 PM 11/1/00 -0500, you wrote: >>>I got this in my mailbox. Did any of you get it? >> >>Yep. >> >>Interesting that earthlink is one of the more aggressive ISPs in terms of >>blocking specific kinds of ports and/or traffic to prevent spamming...Also >>interesting is to contemplate which of the _many_ "professional" >>organizations to which you belong sold your address (and mine...). >> >>Still, the product looks cool. >> >>Horace >> > > > > From skolnik@attglobal.net Fri Nov 3 04:48:00 2000 From: skolnik@attglobal.net (David Skolnik) Date: Thu Nov 2 21:48 MST 2000 Subject: Guidelines, etc. Dave- With regard to Clavier, the magazine, one would probably have to refer to them as 'virtual Luddites'. They have no web presence and no email. They do, however have a telephone and fax. Here is their info: Clavier, Publisher- The Instrumentalist Publishing Company, 200 Northfield Road, Northfield, Illinois 60093 Phone # (847) 446-5000, fax# (847) 446-6263. David Skolnik At 09:28 AM 11/02/2000 -0600, you wrote: >Don: > >Is the original Weirich artical available on line? > >dave > > >David M. Porritt >dporritt@swbell.net >Meadows School of the Arts >Southern Methodist University >Dallas, TX 75275 > From dporritt@swbell.net Fri Nov 3 12:10:00 2000 From: dporritt@swbell.net (David M. Porritt) Date: Fri Nov 3 05:10 MST 2000 Subject: Guidelines, etc. I guess I'll have to check our library and make an illegal photocopy. dave *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 11/2/00 at 11:45 PM David Skolnik wrote: >Dave- > >With regard to Clavier, the magazine, one would probably have to refer to >them as 'virtual Luddites'. They have no web presence and no email. They >do, however have a telephone and fax. Here is their info: >Clavier, Publisher- The Instrumentalist Publishing Company, 200 Northfield >Road, Northfield, Illinois 60093 Phone # (847) 446-5000, fax# (847) >446-6263. > >David Skolnik > > > > > >At 09:28 AM 11/02/2000 -0600, you wrote: >>Don: >> >>Is the original Weirich artical available on line? >> >>dave >> >> >>David M. Porritt >>dporritt@swbell.net >>Meadows School of the Arts >>Southern Methodist University >>Dallas, TX 75275 >> David M. Porritt dporritt@swbell.net Meadows School of the Arts Southern Methodist University Dallas, TX 75275 From nhunt@jagat.com Fri Nov 3 19:44:00 2000 From: nhunt@jagat.com (Newton Hunt) Date: Fri Nov 3 12:44 MST 2000 Subject: A-440 Policy? Too late! I didn't see your post until now, having trouble getting through all the posts. I just found an 'acceptable' case a a camera store, bought it, dumped my tools into and left for Highland Park walking. After about 1.25 miles, just three blocks from home I was hit by a buy who used his bumper, still attached to the car and my brand new case had it's first tumble. Seems unscratched but I haven't checked the SAT yet. I just got it back from Inventronics for new face, battery and thorough checkout. Darn, darn, darn. Need to get it out and see if it turns on. I will look at those cases the next time someone can get me to a Home Desperate. Take care and have a good weekend. Newton "Richard E. West" wrote: > > Newton Hunt wrote: > > > > > I have to go out and see if I can find another soft camera > > case to hold my tools. The old one is just getting too > > ratty and has too many splits in the fabric. > > > > Newton: > > If you're looking for the perfect soft case for your tools go to your > local hardware/Home Depot type store and look for "BucketBoss" tool > cases. They're the next best thing to sliced bread. For years I had a > custom case I made out of an old alto sax instrument case. This year I > switched to this soft tool kit. There are several types. I bought > three. One is big, with lots of slots for tools and a smaller case > attached that I use for voicing tools; it has a nice shoulder strap and > handle as well.. The other bag is a wide mouthed bag that I use for > tuning tools. The third "bag" is one that fits into a milk crate as is > good for large tools but also has several pockets for various sized > items. There are others that look like they'd handle a computer plus > tools. I've looked for the "perfect" tools cases for years and these > are it. Check it out. > > Richard West From moffattr@cadvision.com Fri Nov 3 23:20:00 2000 From: moffattr@cadvision.com (Robert Moffatt) Date: Fri Nov 3 16:20 MST 2000 Subject: Celeste This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment Dear List, Our Orchestra is looking for a Celeste. Would anyone out there have any = information as makers etc? Thanks in advance, Bob =20 Robert Moffatt =20 Moffatt & Sons Piano Service Calgary, Alberta Canada ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ptg.org/pipermail/caut/attachments/6f/a2/9d/ce/attachment.htm ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment-- From cramer@BrandonU.CA Sat Nov 4 01:33:00 2000 From: cramer@BrandonU.CA (Mark Cramer) Date: Fri Nov 3 18:33 MST 2000 Subject: Harpsichord/Harp tuning? I've seen the discussion of harpsichord tuning with RCT on the list before. If any would be so kind as to repeat this (how to) information, I promise to pay attention this time! As well, any suggestions for tuning harps with RCT? Thanks, Mark Cramer Brandon University From crane@TWSUVM.UC.TWSU.EDU Sat Nov 4 05:09:00 2000 From: crane@TWSUVM.UC.TWSU.EDU (Alan Crane) Date: Fri Nov 3 22:09 MST 2000 Subject: Celeste Bob Moffatt wrote requesting information on celestas for orchestral use. The Schiedmayer company presented an excellent class, and displayed their instruments, at the 1999 PTG convention in Kansas City, MO. Their instruments are pretty awesome to someone who has to struggle with an ancient (and abused) Mustel celesta. :) Their web site URL is: http://www.pianos.de/schiedmayer/ Percussion Source, in Dallas, TX, carries them and, perhaps, a web search would turn up other dealers on this continent. Regards, Alan Crane, RPT School of Music Wichita State University crane@twsuvm.uc.twsu.edu From ilvey@jps.net Sat Nov 4 07:01:00 2000 From: ilvey@jps.net (David Ilvedson) Date: Sat Nov 4 00:01 MST 2000 Subject: Celeste Any possiblity of a another Schiedmayer class and display at a national? David I. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-caut@ptg.org [mailto:owner-caut@ptg.org]On Behalf Of Alan > Crane > Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 9:07 PM > To: caut@ptg.org > Subject: Re: Celeste > > > > Bob Moffatt wrote requesting information on celestas for orchestral use. > > The Schiedmayer company presented an excellent class, and displayed their > instruments, at the 1999 PTG convention in Kansas City, MO. > Their instruments are pretty awesome to someone who has to > struggle with an > ancient (and abused) Mustel celesta. :) > > Their web site URL is: > > http://www.pianos.de/schiedmayer/ > > Percussion Source, in Dallas, TX, carries them and, perhaps, a web search > would turn up other dealers on this continent. > > > > > Regards, > > Alan Crane, RPT > School of Music > Wichita State University > crane@twsuvm.uc.twsu.edu > > From ilvey@jps.net Sat Nov 4 09:41:00 2000 From: ilvey@jps.net (David Ilvedson) Date: Sat Nov 4 02:41 MST 2000 Subject: Celeste Or for that matter a Yamaha celeste class? David I. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-caut@ptg.org [mailto:owner-caut@ptg.org]On Behalf Of David > Ilvedson > Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 11:00 PM > To: caut@ptg.org > Subject: RE: Celeste > > > Any possiblity of a another Schiedmayer class and display at a national? > > David I. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-caut@ptg.org [mailto:owner-caut@ptg.org]On Behalf Of Alan > > Crane > > Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 9:07 PM > > To: caut@ptg.org > > Subject: Re: Celeste > > > > > > > > Bob Moffatt wrote requesting information on celestas for orchestral use. > > > > The Schiedmayer company presented an excellent class, and > displayed their > > instruments, at the 1999 PTG convention in Kansas City, MO. > > Their instruments are pretty awesome to someone who has to > > struggle with an > > ancient (and abused) Mustel celesta. :) > > > > Their web site URL is: > > > > http://www.pianos.de/schiedmayer/ > > > > Percussion Source, in Dallas, TX, carries them and, perhaps, a > web search > > would turn up other dealers on this continent. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Alan Crane, RPT > > School of Music > > Wichita State University > > crane@twsuvm.uc.twsu.edu > > > > > > From agilreath@mindspring.com Sat Nov 4 13:38:00 2000 From: agilreath@mindspring.com (Allan L. Gilreath, RPT) Date: Sat Nov 4 06:38 MST 2000 Subject: Celeste David, No plans at the moment but I'll certainly run that by the committee. Allan Allan L. Gilreath, RPT Assistant Director - TEAM20001 July 11-15, 2001 - Reno, NV agilreath@mindspring.com http://www.ptg.org/conv.htm Director: Laura Olsen, RPT Assistant Directors: Allan Gilreath, RPT - Gary Neie, RPT - Dale Probst, RPT -----Original Message----- From: owner-caut@ptg.org [mailto:owner-caut@ptg.org]On Behalf Of David Ilvedson Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 2:00 AM To: caut@ptg.org Subject: RE: Celeste Any possiblity of a another Schiedmayer class and display at a national? David I. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-caut@ptg.org [mailto:owner-caut@ptg.org]On Behalf Of Alan > Crane > Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 9:07 PM > To: caut@ptg.org > Subject: Re: Celeste > > > > Bob Moffatt wrote requesting information on celestas for orchestral use. > > The Schiedmayer company presented an excellent class, and displayed their > instruments, at the 1999 PTG convention in Kansas City, MO. > Their instruments are pretty awesome to someone who has to > struggle with an > ancient (and abused) Mustel celesta. :) > > Their web site URL is: > > http://www.pianos.de/schiedmayer/ > > Percussion Source, in Dallas, TX, carries them and, perhaps, a web search > would turn up other dealers on this continent. > > > > > Regards, > > Alan Crane, RPT > School of Music > Wichita State University > crane@twsuvm.uc.twsu.edu > > From wardprobst@cst.net Sat Nov 4 20:50:00 2000 From: wardprobst@cst.net (Ward & Probst) Date: Sat Nov 4 13:50 MST 2000 Subject: A-440 Policy? Hi Newton, I also use Duluth Trading Co. stuff- they manufacture Bucket Boss and Duck Wear. Website- http://buy.duluthtrading.com/store/departments.asp I use a Contractors Briefcase which holds basic tools, computer, PTG literature and invoices. Elizabeth uses the Gatemouth Jr. containing SATIII, tools and carries her paperwork in a portfolio. Good stuff, wears better than the camera bags which I also like. Hope you are feeling well after your mishap. Best, Dale Dale Probst, RPT Member, TEAM20001 PTG Annual Convention Reno, NV --July 11-15, 2000 email: wardprobst@cst.net (940)691-3682 voice (940) 691-6843 fax TEAM2001 website: http://www.ptg.org/conv.htm -----Original Message----- From: owner-caut@ptg.org [mailto:owner-caut@ptg.org]On Behalf Of Newton Hunt Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 11:23 AM To: caut@ptg.org Subject: Re: A-440 Policy? Too late! I didn't see your post until now, having trouble getting through all the posts. I just found an 'acceptable' case a a camera store, bought it, dumped my tools into and left for Highland Park walking. After about 1.25 miles, just three blocks from home I was hit by a buy who used his bumper, still attached to the car and my brand new case had it's first tumble. Seems unscratched but I haven't checked the SAT yet. I just got it back from Inventronics for new face, battery and thorough checkout. Darn, darn, darn. Need to get it out and see if it turns on. I will look at those cases the next time someone can get me to a Home Desperate. Take care and have a good weekend. Newton "Richard E. West" wrote: > > Newton Hunt wrote: > > > > > I have to go out and see if I can find another soft camera > > case to hold my tools. The old one is just getting too > > ratty and has too many splits in the fabric. > > > > Newton: > > If you're looking for the perfect soft case for your tools go to your > local hardware/Home Depot type store and look for "BucketBoss" tool > cases. They're the next best thing to sliced bread. For years I had a > custom case I made out of an old alto sax instrument case. This year I > switched to this soft tool kit. There are several types. I bought > three. One is big, with lots of slots for tools and a smaller case > attached that I use for voicing tools; it has a nice shoulder strap and > handle as well.. The other bag is a wide mouthed bag that I use for > tuning tools. The third "bag" is one that fits into a milk crate as is > good for large tools but also has several pockets for various sized > items. There are others that look like they'd handle a computer plus > tools. I've looked for the "perfect" tools cases for years and these > are it. Check it out. > > Richard West From ilvey@jps.net Sat Nov 4 21:08:00 2000 From: ilvey@jps.net (David Ilvedson) Date: Sat Nov 4 14:08 MST 2000 Subject: A-440 Policy? Ward, That is exactly what I use and I love it. My question is whether the Gatemouth Jr. Pro with the strap is the same inside as the Gatemouth Jr.? I also like the black finish. David I. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-caut@ptg.org [mailto:owner-caut@ptg.org]On Behalf Of Ward & > Probst > Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 12:48 PM > To: caut@ptg.org > Subject: RE: A-440 Policy? > > > Hi Newton, > > I also use Duluth Trading Co. stuff- they manufacture Bucket Boss and Duck > Wear. Website- http://buy.duluthtrading.com/store/departments.asp > I use a Contractors Briefcase which holds basic tools, computer, PTG > literature and invoices. Elizabeth uses the Gatemouth Jr. > containing SATIII, > tools and carries her paperwork in a portfolio. > Good stuff, wears better than the camera bags which I also like. Hope you > are feeling well after your mishap. > > Best, > Dale > Dale Probst, RPT > Member, TEAM20001 > PTG Annual Convention > Reno, NV --July 11-15, 2000 > email: wardprobst@cst.net > (940)691-3682 voice > (940) 691-6843 fax > TEAM2001 website: http://www.ptg.org/conv.htm > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-caut@ptg.org [mailto:owner-caut@ptg.org]On Behalf Of Newton > Hunt > Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 11:23 AM > To: caut@ptg.org > Subject: Re: A-440 Policy? > > > Too late! > > I didn't see your post until now, having trouble getting > through all the posts. > > I just found an 'acceptable' case a a camera store, bought > it, dumped my tools into and left for Highland Park > walking. After about 1.25 miles, just three blocks from > home I was hit by a buy who used his bumper, still attached > to the car and my brand new case had it's first tumble. > Seems unscratched but I haven't checked the SAT yet. I just > got it back from Inventronics for new face, battery and > thorough checkout. Darn, darn, darn. Need to get it out > and see if it turns on. > > I will look at those cases the next time someone can get me > to a Home Desperate. > > Take care and have a good weekend. > > Newton > > "Richard E. West" wrote: > > > > Newton Hunt wrote: > > > > > > > > I have to go out and see if I can find another soft camera > > > case to hold my tools. The old one is just getting too > > > ratty and has too many splits in the fabric. > > > > > > > Newton: > > > > If you're looking for the perfect soft case for your tools go to your > > local hardware/Home Depot type store and look for "BucketBoss" tool > > cases. They're the next best thing to sliced bread. For years I had a > > custom case I made out of an old alto sax instrument case. This year I > > switched to this soft tool kit. There are several types. I bought > > three. One is big, with lots of slots for tools and a smaller case > > attached that I use for voicing tools; it has a nice shoulder strap and > > handle as well.. The other bag is a wide mouthed bag that I use for > > tuning tools. The third "bag" is one that fits into a milk crate as is > > good for large tools but also has several pockets for various sized > > items. There are others that look like they'd handle a computer plus > > tools. I've looked for the "perfect" tools cases for years and these > > are it. Check it out. > > > > Richard West > > > From skolnik@attglobal.net Mon Nov 6 02:25:00 2000 From: skolnik@attglobal.net (David Skolnik) Date: Sun Nov 5 19:25 MST 2000 Subject: Celeste Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ptg.org/pipermail/caut/attachments/9a/c1/ee/ef/attachment.htm From hgreeley@stanford.edu Mon Nov 6 03:27:00 2000 From: hgreeley@stanford.edu (Horace Greeley) Date: Sun Nov 5 20:27 MST 2000 Subject: Celeste ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment David, Bob, et al, At 09:21 PM 11/5/00 -0500, you wrote: >I understand the Yamaha action is considerably different from the >Shiedmayer. You should check them both out, but don't ignore another of >the currently running threads... A-440 policy. What range of pitch do >celestes come in anyway? The Yamaha is probably whatever is left over from Deagan (remember tuning forks?), which was left over from Jenco, which was kludged from Mustel. It is an oddly balanced system of dependent levers. Changing something in one place seldom has the desired effect, as it is changing something else somewhere else. (I know, pianos are like that. Only, this is ridiculously more so). Each of these actions has gone through several versions as different engineers have tried to "fix" things. Try to find someone who has an older Mustel who will let you take pictures, measurements, etc. My highly prejudiced observation is that, since Yamaha has not left anything alone that they have bought, chances are that the version of celeste they now build has also been Yamafied. So, do you want a celeste that sounds like a celeste, or something that kinda-sorta-maybe is in the ball park. Rather right up there with how you want pianos to sound, too. Hands down - get the money, and go with the biggest Schiedmeyer you can get. As to pitch, I have promised myself to finish up my now way-to-long-standing work on the Kissin review before sounding off on pitch...too much. The short version is that, except for the guild, and a very few others, 440 as a standard is about as dead as the dodo - and has been for years. (The important issue is obviously to not screw up instruments by making such violent changes...if you can convince others of things that we know from experience to be essentially self-evident.) That being said, if you buy a real celeste, chances are that the bars are going to be cold-rolled steel (that's how they get that sound). That being the case, they will be less susceptible to pitch changes than a piano (yes, it's a generalization), and one should shoot for a _reasonable_ average pitch, and then have the thing made 1 Hz higher. So, if most of the groups who will be working with this instrument tune to 442, get it tuned to 443. These are complex things which some folks have already touched on a bit. The most important thing is that there is simply no one-size-fits-all answer. More on all of this if I ever get that damned Kissin thing finished. My apologies. More later. Best to all. Horace >At 04:14 PM 11/03/2000 -0700, you wrote: >>Dear List, >> >>Our Orchestra is looking for a Celeste. Would anyone out there have any >>information as makers etc? >> >>Thanks in advance, >> >>Bob >> >> >> >> >>Robert Moffatt >>Moffatt & Sons Piano Service >>Calgary, Alberta >>Canada ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ptg.org/pipermail/caut/attachments/04/d2/e0/e6/attachment.htm ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment-- From pianoman@umich.edu Mon Nov 6 13:41:00 2000 From: pianoman@umich.edu (Robert Grijalva) Date: Mon Nov 6 06:41 MST 2000 Subject: Celeste I believe our celeste is at A-440. I imagine Schiedmeyer offers others, since they are European. Robert Grijalva Asst. Professor and Director, Piano Technology School of Music Phone: 734-764-6207 e-mail: pianoman@umich.edu On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, David Skolnik wrote: > Bob, > I understand the Yamaha action is considerably different from the > Shiedmayer. You should check them both out, but don't ignore another of > the currently running threads... A-440 policy. What range of pitch do > celestes come in anyway? > > David Skolnik > > > > At 04:14 PM 11/03/2000 -0700, you wrote: > > Dear List, >   > Our Orchestra is looking for a Celeste. Would anyone out > there have any information as makers etc? >   > Thanks in advance, >   > Bob  >   >   >   >   > Robert Moffatt  > Moffatt & Sons Piano Service > Calgary, Alberta > Canada > > > > From fssturm@unm.edu Mon Nov 6 14:27:00 2000 From: fssturm@unm.edu (Fred Sturm) Date: Mon Nov 6 07:27 MST 2000 Subject: Celeste Truly a grand action? Up-striking rather than down-striking? How are the bars held? Fred Sturm University of New Mexico Robert Grijalva wrote: > > Yamaha sells celestes. The Univ. of Michigan orchestra purchased one a > few years ago. ------------- It's got a very > nice action...basically an oversized grand piano action, complete with > giant hammers. It's rather attractive also, with a stained oak finish. > > Robert Grijalva > Asst. Professor and Director, Piano Technology > School of Music > Phone: 734-764-6207 > e-mail: pianoman@umich.edu From hgreeley@stanford.edu Mon Nov 6 16:44:00 2000 From: hgreeley@stanford.edu (Horace Greeley) Date: Mon Nov 6 09:44 MST 2000 Subject: Celeste Robert, et al, Thanks very much for the update on the Yamaha celeste. At least the action seems to be updated - a most nice change. Would you please describe the unit physically? How are the bars and resonators laid out? How do the dampers work? Stuff like that. Thanks again. Horace At 08:33 AM 11/6/00 -0500, you wrote: >Yamaha sells celestes. The Univ. of Michigan orchestra purchased one a >few years ago. It is quite nice and affordable as compared to the best >German model (Schiedemeyer, I think.) We payed approximately $17,000, if >I recall correctly. > >If I'm not mistaken, they ship out of the percussion dept. which is in >Grand Haven, Michigan (the former Everett Piano factory). It's got a very >nice action...basically an oversized grand piano action, complete with >giant hammers. It's rather attractive also, with a stained oak finish. > >Robert Grijalva >Asst. Professor and Director, Piano Technology >School of Music >Phone: 734-764-6207 >e-mail: pianoman@umich.edu > > >On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Robert Moffatt wrote: > > > Dear List, > > > > Our Orchestra is looking for a Celeste. Would anyone out there have any > information as makers etc? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > Robert Moffatt > > Moffatt & Sons Piano Service > > Calgary, Alberta > > Canada > > From drose@dlcwest.com Sun Nov 12 23:45:00 2000 From: drose@dlcwest.com (Don) Date: Sun Nov 12 16:45 MST 2000 Subject: No subject Hi All, I am hoping to find out what temperament might have been used by a Mr. Joubert for tuning for Ignacy Jan Paderewski. Regards, Don Rose, B.Mus., A.M.U.S., A.MUS., R.M.T., R.P.T. Tuner for the Saskatchewan Centre of the Arts drose@dlcwest.com http://donrose.xoasis.com/ 3004 Grant Rd. REGINA, SK S4S 5G7 306-352-3620 or 1-888-29t-uner From hgreeley@stanford.edu Mon Nov 13 06:38:00 2000 From: hgreeley@stanford.edu (Horace Greeley) Date: Sun Nov 12 23:38 MST 2000 Subject: Hi, Don, At 05:42 PM 11/12/00 -0600, you wrote: >I am hoping to find out what temperament might have been used by a Mr. >Joubert for tuning for Ignacy Jan Paderewski. I am sure that there will be many other theories about this, but my bet is on the Marpurg Temperament I. The reason is that it is quite easy to tune, sounds a very great deal like ET, and still gives reasonable colour to differing keys. >Don Rose, B.Mus., A.M.U.S., A.MUS., R.M.T., R.P.T. Hmmmmm - I simply _must_ get some more letters to put behind my name.... Best! Horace +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Horace Greeley, email: hgreeley@stanford.edu CNA, MCP, RPT Systems Analyst/Engineer voice: 650.725.9062 Controller's Office fax: 650.725.8014 Stanford University 651 Serra St., RM 100, MC 6215 Stanford, CA 94305-6215 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From nhunt@jagat.com Mon Nov 13 13:10:00 2000 From: nhunt@jagat.com (Newton Hunt) Date: Mon Nov 13 06:10 MST 2000 Subject: > Hmmmmm - I simply _must_ get some more letters to put behind my > name.... > > Best! > > Horace Gee, Horace, I have a few you can borrow. Maybe SOB, HB (hair brained), ''ACI (Anal Cerebral Inversion). I have a few others, just say the word. Newton NTHMFIC From johnsond@stolaf.edu Mon Nov 13 16:32:00 2000 From: johnsond@stolaf.edu (Dennis Johnson) Date: Mon Nov 13 09:32 MST 2000 Subject: Marpurg I? Hi, I don't know man, of course we can't know exactly, but Ellis' research didn't reveal any tuners I'm aware of actually tuning a Marpurg I, although that was earlier. There does seem to be evidence that American Tuners may have adapted the switch to equal more quickly than European ones, but who knows. Fact is anyway, that Marpurg I has only two colors within the major keys, as opposed to the one color in equal. IMO, that is so close to equal (it passes the PTG exam) that ultimately it wouldn't make much difference between equal with the music. If you want subtle color, go with a nice Victorian style, if you don't, go with equal. That simple. It's seems unfortunate sometimes that the tuners of the past didn't leave behind more evidence of their specific styles, especially considering the range of options that were generally accepted. I have gradually begun to understand this on a more personal level, however. It is something I rarely talk about any more myself. I just do it. My customers and faculty seem to like very much what I serve up to them, and it works. At the risk pushing buttons, I think we may have been guilty of over emphasizing temperament somewhat, but that too was natural with the excitement of our research in the past 10 years. When you go into a fine restaurant, does the chef go into detail about his secrets or ingredients? I am not familiar with this Mr. Joubert.... so you get some rambling from one who doesn't anymore. Dennis Johnson St. Olaf From gjg2@humboldt.edu Tue Nov 14 19:40:00 2000 From: gjg2@humboldt.edu (Greg Granoff RPT) Date: Tue Nov 14 12:40 MST 2000 Subject: stage truck List, Need a new stage truck for one of our 'D's. Anybody have any opinions/recommendations as to who provides the best new ones? Thanks, Greg Granoff From drose@dlcwest.com Tue Nov 14 20:12:00 2000 From: drose@dlcwest.com (Don) Date: Tue Nov 14 13:12 MST 2000 Subject: stage truck Hi, Have a welder build one from scratch. It will be specific to the piano, of course. But I don't think many get moved to other pianos, now do they? At 11:37 AM 11/14/2000 -0800, you wrote: >List, > >Need a new stage truck for one of our 'D's. >Anybody have any opinions/recommendations as to who provides the best >new ones? >Thanks, >Greg Granoff > > > Regards, Don Rose, B.Mus., A.M.U.S., A.MUS., R.M.T., R.P.T. Tuner for the Saskatchewan Centre of the Arts drose@dlcwest.com http://donrose.xoasis.com/ 3004 Grant Rd. REGINA, SK S4S 5G7 306-352-3620 or 1-888-29t-uner From fssturm@unm.edu Tue Nov 14 21:10:00 2000 From: fssturm@unm.edu (Fred Sturm) Date: Tue Nov 14 14:10 MST 2000 Subject: All right, Newton, I'll bite. NTHMFIC? Fred Sturm, XYZ Newton Hunt wrote: > > > Hmmmmm - I simply _must_ get some more letters to put behind my > > name.... > > > > Best! > > > > Horace > > Gee, Horace, I have a few you can borrow. Maybe SOB, HB > (hair brained), ''ACI (Anal Cerebral Inversion). I have a > few others, just say the word. > > Newton NTHMFIC From jajones2@facstaff.wisc.edu Tue Nov 14 21:35:00 2000 From: jajones2@facstaff.wisc.edu (Joel Jones) Date: Tue Nov 14 14:35 MST 2000 Subject: stage truck on 11/14/00 1:37 PM, Greg Granoff RPT at gjg2@humboldt.edu wrote: > List, > > Need a new stage truck for one of our 'D's. > Anybody have any opinions/recommendations as to who provides the best > new ones? > Thanks, > Greg Granoff > Greg, For my money I use the trucks Paul Jansen sells. 2 years ago I bought a couple of trucks for rebuild D's and have been very impressed with quality. They move easily, but not enough for pianist to push across stage while playing. The trucks are heavy gauge and don't spring up as some other trucks I've seen. incidently I have a couple of used Colson trucks that we aren't using. Good condition. If you're interested email me privately. Joel -- Joel A. Jones Senior Piano Technician 1501 Humanities Building 455 North Park Street Madison, WI 53706 FAX 608 - 262 - 8876 608 - 263 - 1887 From A440A@aol.com Tue Nov 14 21:55:00 2000 From: A440A@aol.com (A440A@aol.com) Date: Tue Nov 14 14:55 MST 2000 Subject: stage truck >>Need a new stage truck for one of our 'D's. Anybody have any opinions/recommendations as to who provides the best new ones? > Greetings, I have found no better than Jansen. Regards, Ed Foote RPT From cramer@BrandonU.CA Tue Nov 14 22:34:00 2000 From: cramer@BrandonU.CA (Mark Cramer) Date: Tue Nov 14 15:34 MST 2000 Subject: stage truck HI Greg, I really hate the way adjustable stage dollys "bow" in the middle under the weight of a D. Also, full-size pianos tend to be "springy" on these things, no-one seems to likes this. If you can justify the big brass wheels from Hamburg ($350.00 ea.), I certainly recommend them. However, if you must have a dolly (moving over uneven floors, etc.), I agree with Don, have one welded. You will save money on the purchase and on shipping. I had one made for an SD-10 several years ago. The welder persuaded me to have the arms on edge (2 1/2" x 3/8" steel I believe)rather than flat, to prevent the bowing I mentioned. It is custom (non-adjustable), looks great, and is stable to the point of redundance. Construction details; consider a "Y" , with one arm continuous from front-left wheel to rear wheel, and the right arm overlapping for about 1 foot beyond where the arms meet. The two peices are joined with bolts over this distance. Care was taken once wheels were selected to duplicate pedal height. Other than that, all the welder needed was centre to centre measurements of the legs, and diameters at the foot of same. Mark Cramer, Brandon University -----Original Message----- From: owner-caut@ptg.org [mailto:owner-caut@ptg.org]On Behalf Of Greg Granoff RPT Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 1:38 PM To: CAUT Subject: stage truck List, Need a new stage truck for one of our 'D's. Anybody have any opinions/recommendations as to who provides the best new ones? Thanks, Greg Granoff From hgreeley@stanford.edu Wed Nov 15 08:00:00 2000 From: hgreeley@stanford.edu (Horace Greeley) Date: Wed Nov 15 01:00 MST 2000 Subject: Harumph. Hi, Harumph. "Our very good friend, the brilliant pianist", Jose Feghali, has been in town rehearsing and performing Tsch. 1 with a local band. Yesterday, this worthy earned himself a place in an elite group of pianists, now four, to be exact, who have decided to "service" (without notice or permission) an instrument for which I am/have been responsible. I will not leave any one of them alone with an instrument. Those of you who know me know, of course, that I handled this situation with the kind of infinite grace, tack, and aplomb for which I am so justly known...Right. I have not started to work through whatever he was trying to do - there was not time yesterday, and today's performance was on a different instrument. There was time to tune, and nothing else. So, whatever he did, he lived with last night...seems the piano had a few noises that it had not had the day before... Just to be absolutely clear - I am more than happy to help even the most brain-dead nimrod with whatever they think they might want, so long as the instrument is not damaged or things undone. At the same time, it is precisely those folks who have a modicum of technical training who are the most dangerous. They are, in my experience, the ones the very most likely to misapprehend why a given thing might be done a given way; or, that they can (obviously) improve/repair something. When they become so ego-centric and irrational as to presume to start working on an instrument with which they have little, if any, historical relationship, without at least some notice to the responsible technician, they cross over what is for me, a line of acceptable behavior. Anyway, as we used to say in the Navy: "Don't drop the soap." Best to all. Horace ********************************************* Horace Greeley, CNA, MCP, RPT Systems Analyst/Engineer Controller's Office, Stanford University 651 Serra St., RM 100 Stanford, CA 94305 Voice: 650.725.9062 Fax: 650.725.8014 ********************************************* From nhunt@jagat.com Wed Nov 15 10:39:00 2000 From: nhunt@jagat.com (Newton Hunt) Date: Wed Nov 15 03:39 MST 2000 Subject: NTHMFIC Not The Head MoFo In Charge. The HMFIC is the person who solves problems after being convinced or bullied into acknowledging there IS a problem. My apologies. Newton From nhunt@jagat.com Wed Nov 15 13:12:00 2000 From: nhunt@jagat.com (Newton Hunt) Date: Wed Nov 15 06:12 MST 2000 Subject: Harumph. Anal void! Cranial-rectal inverted numbnut! Fecal cerebral contaminate! Newton From hoffsoco@martin.luther.edu Wed Nov 15 13:51:00 2000 From: hoffsoco@martin.luther.edu (Conrad Hoffsommer) Date: Wed Nov 15 06:51 MST 2000 Subject: Harumph. Horace, At 23:59 11/14/2000 -0800, you wrote: >Harumph. >"Our very good friend, the brilliant pianist", Jose Feghali, ... As Newton said: >Anal void! Cranial-rectal inverted numbnut! Fecal cerebral >contaminate! Perhaps his name was originally spelled "Fugawe", and is a member of that native American tribe of famously inept scouts. It was originally thought that they were so proud of their scouting abilities that they would would announce to all "We're the Fugawe!" whenever they crested a ridge. However, after many incidents, it became clear to all that what they were really saying was, "Where the fugawe?" Conrad Hoffsommer - mailto:hoffsoco@luther.edu You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you. From gjg2@humboldt.edu Wed Nov 15 18:43:00 2000 From: gjg2@humboldt.edu (Greg Granoff RPT) Date: Wed Nov 15 11:43 MST 2000 Subject: stage truck To Don, Fred, Joel, Bob, Mark, et al, Thanks for all your good suggestions! Mark's description of his custom made machine gave me the idea to make an overlay of heavy walled square stock bolted to the existing Colson truck with its ridiculous bow-up in the center. This bow is so bad it interferes with the ability of the front wheels to cast properly. No amount of shoving the center plate down and re-tightening adjustment bolts helps. The band/orchestra instrument tech here is an accomplished welder who owns his own equipment, so I think we may have the problem solved. Funny how small moments of (projected) victory can be so exciting...... Greg From hoffsoco@martin.luther.edu Thu Nov 16 19:42:00 2000 From: hoffsoco@martin.luther.edu (Conrad Hoffsommer) Date: Thu Nov 16 12:42 MST 2000 Subject: FW: CAUT Technical in Reno At 13:28 11/16/2000 -0600, you wrote: > > Hello Donald et al, > > > > I'd be all for a harpsichord tech. at Reno. I do a lot of harpsichord work > > and it has been my experience that far too few people are willing to > > tackle such work due to lack of knowledge. Ed Kottick would be a good > > choice... he's pretty well known through his books and articles he's > > written over the years. > > > > Eric I agree with Herr Wolfley. Besides being one of the most knowledgeable hpschd peoples, he is very personable. I had the pleasure to get to know him at a seminar in Vermillion, SD back in May. You'll have fun and learn a lot at the same time. Conrad Hoffsommer - Music Technician -mailto:hoffsoco@luther.edu Luther College, 700 College Drive, Decorah, Iowa 52101-1045 Voice-(319)-387-1204 // Fax (319)-387-1076(Dept.office) Thanksgiving: The day all over America that families sit down to dinner at the same moment: halftime. From hgreeley@stanford.edu Sun Nov 19 16:43:00 2000 From: hgreeley@stanford.edu (Horace Greeley) Date: Sun Nov 19 09:43 MST 2000 Subject: M$ Word Hi, Is there anyone (besides myself) who does not use Word? If you use another word processor, what do you use? Thanks. Horace +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Horace Greeley, email: hgreeley@stanford.edu CNA, MCP, RPT Systems Analyst/Engineer voice: 650.725.9062 Controller's Office fax: 650.725.8014 Stanford University 651 Serra St., RM 100, MC 6215 Stanford, CA 94305-6215 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From hoffsoco@martin.luther.edu Sun Nov 19 17:11:00 2000 From: hoffsoco@martin.luther.edu (Conrad Hoffsommer) Date: Sun Nov 19 10:11 MST 2000 Subject: M$ Word At 08:40 11/19/2000 -0800, you wrote: >Hi, > >Is there anyone (besides myself) who does not use Word? >If you use another word processor, what do you use? > >Thanks. >Horace Wordperfect 6.1 Conrad Hoffsommer - Decorah, Ia. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you. From baldyam@sk.sympatico.ca Sun Nov 19 17:14:00 2000 From: baldyam@sk.sympatico.ca (Roger Jolly) Date: Sun Nov 19 10:14 MST 2000 Subject: M$ Word Hi Horace, MS works works well for me. Roger At 08:40 AM 19/11/00 -0800, you wrote: > >Hi, > >Is there anyone (besides myself) who does not use Word? > >If you use another word processor, what do you use? > >Thanks. > >Horace > >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >Horace Greeley, email: hgreeley@stanford.edu >CNA, MCP, RPT >Systems Analyst/Engineer voice: 650.725.9062 >Controller's Office fax: 650.725.8014 >Stanford University >651 Serra St., RM 100, MC 6215 >Stanford, CA 94305-6215 > >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Roger Jolly Saskatoon, Canada. 306-665-0213 Fax 652-0505 From dgurnee@humboldt1.com Sun Nov 19 18:06:00 2000 From: dgurnee@humboldt1.com (Daniel Gurnee) Date: Sun Nov 19 11:06 MST 2000 Subject: M$ Word on 11/19/00 8:40 AM, Horace Greeley at hgreeley@stanford.edu wrote: > > Hi, > > Is there anyone (besides myself) who does not use Word? > > If you use another word processor, what do you use? > > Thanks. > > Horace > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Horace Greeley, email: hgreeley@stanford.edu > CNA, MCP, RPT > Systems Analyst/Engineer voice: 650.725.9062 > Controller's Office fax: 650.725.8014 > Stanford University > 651 Serra St., RM 100, MC 6215 > Stanford, CA 94305-6215 > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Horace, Remarkable querry. I have used Claris since Apple II and after considering Word and its cost, have continued with satisfaction Apple Works 5. It interfaces well with many other softwares. Apple Works 6 leaves out the interfacement which is available elsewhere. Dan Gurnee, Ret. HSU, CA From gnewell@ameritech.net Sun Nov 19 18:49:00 2000 From: gnewell@ameritech.net (Greg Newell) Date: Sun Nov 19 11:49 MST 2000 Subject: M$ Word Horace, I use both Word and Wordpro. I have Word mostly because everyone else does. The lemmings are marching!! Greg Newell Daniel Gurnee wrote: > on 11/19/00 8:40 AM, Horace Greeley at hgreeley@stanford.edu wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > Is there anyone (besides myself) who does not use Word? > > > > If you use another word processor, what do you use? > > > > Thanks. > > > > Horace > > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > Horace Greeley, email: hgreeley@stanford.edu > > CNA, MCP, RPT > > Systems Analyst/Engineer voice: 650.725.9062 > > Controller's Office fax: 650.725.8014 > > Stanford University > > 651 Serra St., RM 100, MC 6215 > > Stanford, CA 94305-6215 > > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > Horace, > > Remarkable querry. I have used Claris since Apple II and after considering > Word and its cost, have continued with satisfaction Apple Works 5. It > interfaces well with many other softwares. Apple Works 6 leaves out the > interfacement which is available elsewhere. > > Dan Gurnee, Ret. HSU, CA From skolnik@attglobal.net Sun Nov 19 22:34:00 2000 From: skolnik@attglobal.net (David Skolnik) Date: Sun Nov 19 15:34 MST 2000 Subject: M$ Word Horace, I'm currently using Corel WordPerfect 9. I'm sorry I can't tell you why I prefer it to Word, other than that it's what I started with. It has many more features than I utilize (157MB), but doesn't come in a pared down version. One feature I do like which my version of Word doesn't do easily is the ability to view the document with its codes, making it easier to perform certain editing functions. What's your objection to Word? What do you use? David Skolnik Columbia University ds1091@columbia.edu (212) 854-9656 * * * * skolnik@attglobal.net (212) 222-2394 At 08:40 AM 11/19/2000 -0800, you wrote: >Hi, > >Is there anyone (besides myself) who does not use Word? > >If you use another word processor, what do you use? > >Thanks. > >Horace > >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >Horace Greeley, email: hgreeley@stanford.edu >CNA, MCP, RPT >Systems Analyst/Engineer voice: 650.725.9062 >Controller's Office fax: 650.725.8014 >Stanford University >651 Serra St., RM 100, MC 6215 >Stanford, CA 94305-6215 > >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From harvey@greenwood.net Sun Nov 19 23:49:00 2000 From: harvey@greenwood.net (harvey) Date: Sun Nov 19 16:49 MST 2000 Subject: M$ Word At 08:40 AM 11/19/00 -0800, you wrote: >Hi, > >Is there anyone (besides myself) who does not use Word? > >If you use another word processor, what do you use? > >Thanks. > >Horace Horace, if I didn't know better, I'd say your message was a troll! I hate Word, but use it because all roads lead to it. Specifically, some other programs that I routinely use have built-in WP launchers. Instead of being user configurable, most of them are hard-coded for Word. Admittedly, the other programs often have built-in templates that are only useable in Word. I would prefer writing my own custom templates and having a choice of word processors. If I were doing more writing than I currently do, I would consider going to one of the *NIX offerings for TEXT processing and/or text enhancements (TEX, LATEX, et al). Of course, I would also need the platform to support the programs. This is because I came from the DOS C/PM world that offered powerful text editors. I've recently taken a half-way step in that direction in the Windoze world, by trying a program called "NoteTab". I'll be deciding soon whether to opt for the 'Pro' version. (As mentioned by Greg Newell, I also loaded up Word Pro, but forgot it was there and have yet to try it.) There are reasons why Word became the de facto standard, and in this (one) case, it was not entirely Micro$oft's fault. Word Perfect was doing just fine, but fell asleep at the switch in terms of reacting to market direction. Their first GUI efforts were buggy and slow, and by the time they worked things out, well... Ami Pro was another contender. I think it started as Samna or something like that, then was taken over by Lotus. It had an almost cultist following before that, is just as powerful and far more logical in interface (intuitive) than Word. Yet we don't hear a lot about it either, just like we don't hear much about other Lotus offerings as we did years ago. Now, why do you ask? The question was unusually brief for you! I admit you hit a nerve ending with me. The 'theme' could be extended into other areas -- I also use but *hate* Eudora as a mailer. At least I don't use M$ proggies for this. However, if I could get the MAPI interface working correctly with my Palm Pilot, I'd switch to Pegasus in a flash. Jim Harvey [Still needing lessons in brevity] Jim Harvey, RPT Greenwood, SC harvey@greenwood.net ________________________ Greenwood (n): the largest city in South Carolina WITHOUT an Interstate From skolnik@attglobal.net Mon Nov 20 02:30:00 2000 From: skolnik@attglobal.net (David Skolnik) Date: Sun Nov 19 19:30 MST 2000 Subject: M$ Word Jim- What is it you do not like about Eudora? I'm rather intractably entwined with it since I've saved almost the last three years worth of pianotech @ caut in it. David Skolnik Columbia University ds1091@columbia.edu skolnik@attglobal.net At 06:35 PM 11/19/2000 -0500, you wrote: >-- I also use but *hate* Eudora as a mailer. At least I don't use M$ >proggies for this. However, if I could get the MAPI interface working >correctly with my Palm Pilot, I'd switch to Pegasus in a flash. > >Jim Harvey >[Still needing lessons in brevity] > > > >Jim Harvey, RPT >Greenwood, SC >harvey@greenwood.net >________________________ >Greenwood (n): the largest city in South Carolina WITHOUT an Interstate From nhunt@jagat.com Mon Nov 20 02:30:00 2000 From: nhunt@jagat.com (Newton Hunt) Date: Sun Nov 19 19:30 MST 2000 Subject: M$ Word I have hated MS Word since the day it came out. I have it because it need it because everyone else doesn't have sense enough to hate it as well. I prefer to use WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS. Remember DOS? Newton From birketts@wright.aps.uoguelph.ca Mon Nov 20 02:44:00 2000 From: birketts@wright.aps.uoguelph.ca (Stephen Birkett) Date: Sun Nov 19 19:44 MST 2000 Subject: M$ Word Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2281 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.ptg.org/pipermail/caut/attachments/b1/c5/b2/79/attachment.bin From ilvey@jps.net Mon Nov 20 03:24:00 2000 From: ilvey@jps.net (David Ilvedson, RPT) Date: Sun Nov 19 20:24 MST 2000 Subject: M$ Word Boy, I don't miss DOS at all! I still have Piano Service Manager on DOS but I use it for archiving only. I love WORD 2000 but dont' ask me why. It just does what I need... David I. Original Message----- From: Newton Hunt To: caut@ptg.org Date: Sunday, November 19, 2000 6:33 PM Subject: Re: M$ Word >I have hated MS Word since the day it came out. > >I have it because it need it because everyone else doesn't >have sense enough to hate it as well. > >I prefer to use WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS. Remember DOS? > > Newton > From skolnik@attglobal.net Mon Nov 20 03:46:00 2000 From: skolnik@attglobal.net (David Skolnik) Date: Sun Nov 19 20:46 MST 2000 Subject: M$ Word Newton- Regarding WordPerfect 5.1 in DOS, I had written a couple of macros that allowed me to enter tunings completed, archived that information, produced a separate document that showed only the previous tuning and the next tuning due date for the entire inventory, could generate a list of tunings due for a particular week, based upon information I would input at the time I was entering the tuning info. It was truly cool. Macro creation in 5.1 was simply a matter of recording key strokes. Each subsequent windows version seemed to have an increasingly complex macro language. There were many people at work who used WordPerfect, but not one had any idea how to write macros. I finally had to ask a willing friend to learn enough to write a windows version of the same set of macros, which took approximately 50 to 70 lines of instruction. Point being, I suppose, that the program has significant power as a resource, if you choose to utilize it. By the way, my kids go to school on your old block...93rd street. I bow every time we pass by. David Skolnik ds1091@columbia.edu skolnik@attglobal.net At 09:24 PM 11/19/2000 -0500, you wrote: >I have hated MS Word since the day it came out. > >I have it because it need it because everyone else doesn't >have sense enough to hate it as well. > >I prefer to use WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS. Remember DOS? > > Newton From harvey@greenwood.net Mon Nov 20 04:17:00 2000 From: harvey@greenwood.net (harvey) Date: Sun Nov 19 21:17 MST 2000 Subject: M$ Word David, Below are my 'comments' from an email response to a Eudora survey. It more or less sums everything up. In addition, and like you, I have early pianotech archives stored in various sub-folders. I quit storing and unsubscribed when the p'tech list became "less technical", shortly after the BYU hosting terminated. That's a different story. However, even with my folder hierarchy, Eudora's find routine was -primitive-. The search has finally improved in 4.3.2 though. [begin partial email response to Qualcomm] "Thank you for providing free space for comments. I don't want a subscription to anything. Eudora Lite did not influence my purchase of Eudora Pro. I didn't like Lite. I don't like 'Pro' either -- I tolerate it. I don't like the name of the software. I hid the box so I wouldn't have to see the ugly logo, but it still shows up on my screen during the painfully slow loading. I do like the 'Qualcomm' corporate name though! I purchased the 'Pro' version for a couple of reasons. One, because it had MAPI links to other software that I -do- like. Two, I read where the interface and functionality had improved in v4.0. They were wrong. I was wrong. I'm still learning...why can't you?" [end quoted material] In case my response to Eudora sounds cynical, that's by design. It comes with the turf for Newton and I. At 09:28 PM 11/19/00 -0500, you wrote: >Jim- >What is it you do not like about Eudora? I'm rather intractably entwined >with it since I've saved almost the last three years worth of pianotech @ >caut in it. > >David Skolnik From hgreeley@stanford.edu Mon Nov 20 05:13:00 2000 From: hgreeley@stanford.edu (Horace Greeley) Date: Sun Nov 19 22:13 MST 2000 Subject: M$ Word All, WOW! I had not expected so much variation! Most cool indeed. I posed the question because I am finally dangerously close to having the Kissin thing ready to send out, and I have been in a quandary as to whether to send it out in Word, WPx, ASCII, or whatever. Based on the responses so far, I am most tempted to send it out just in the body of an email. FAIR WARNING: Harvey only thinks he's long winded... There have been just enough on- and off-list responses from folks who use things that might have a problem that I really hesitate to send out attachments, and I really do not have time to convert the thing into more than one or two different formats. FWIW, I hate Word, and use it only when I have to. I greatly prefer WP (been using it since the CP/M DOS versions), but my favorite is still WordStar 6.0...(it runs really, really, really fast under NT - but, there aren't really any printer drivers - something of a drawback). More later. Horace From drose@dlcwest.com Mon Nov 20 07:09:00 2000 From: drose@dlcwest.com (Don) Date: Mon Nov 20 00:09 MST 2000 Subject: M$ Word Hi Horace, There is always play old .txt! Or if we must have formating .rtf At 09:12 PM 11/19/2000 -0800, you wrote: > >All, > >WOW! > >I had not expected so much variation! Most cool indeed. > >I posed the question because I am finally dangerously close to having the >Kissin thing ready to send out, and I have been in a quandary as to whether >to send it out in Word, WPx, ASCII, or whatever. Based on the responses so >far, I am most tempted to send it out just in the body of an email. FAIR >WARNING: Harvey only thinks he's long winded... There have been just >enough on- and off-list responses from folks who use things that might have >a problem that I really hesitate to send out attachments, and I really do >not have time to convert the thing into more than one or two different formats. > >FWIW, I hate Word, and use it only when I have to. I greatly prefer WP >(been using it since the CP/M DOS versions), but my favorite is still >WordStar 6.0...(it runs really, really, really fast under NT - but, there >aren't really any printer drivers - something of a drawback). > >More later. > >Horace > > > Regards, Don Rose, B.Mus., A.M.U.S., A.MUS., R.M.T., R.P.T. Tuner for the Saskatchewan Centre of the Arts drose@dlcwest.com http://donrose.xoasis.com/ 3004 Grant Rd. REGINA, SK S4S 5G7 306-352-3620 or 1-888-29t-uner From hgreeley@stanford.edu Mon Nov 20 07:18:00 2000 From: hgreeley@stanford.edu (Horace Greeley) Date: Mon Nov 20 00:18 MST 2000 Subject: M$ Word Don, At 01:06 AM 11/20/2000 -0600, you wrote: >Hi Horace, > >There is always play old .txt! Or if we must have formating .rtf Seems to me like the .txt will be the most safe bet. Did you ever find out about Mr. Joubert? ( I am curious because I have not had time to address the 440/temperament thing and was wondering what you had discovered.) Thanks. Horace From drose@dlcwest.com Mon Nov 20 07:50:00 2000 From: drose@dlcwest.com (Don) Date: Mon Nov 20 00:50 MST 2000 Subject: Joubert Hi Horace, The recital I wanted the tuning for was tonight. I was unable to get access to the CD to try to "strip" the temperament from it, and had no success with finding anyone who knew more than what was posted here. In the absence of contact with the artist I decided that ET would be the safe bet--as he had tried the piano and found it accepteable in ET. I just wanted to try to go that *extra* mile. At 11:17 PM 11/19/2000 -0800, you wrote: > >Don, > >At 01:06 AM 11/20/2000 -0600, you wrote: >>Hi Horace, >> >>There is always play old .txt! Or if we must have formating .rtf > >Seems to me like the .txt will be the most safe bet. > > >Did you ever find out about Mr. Joubert? ( I am curious because I have not >had time to address the 440/temperament thing and was wondering what you >had discovered.) > >Thanks. > >Horace > > > > Regards, Don Rose, B.Mus., A.M.U.S., A.MUS., R.M.T., R.P.T. Tuner for the Saskatchewan Centre of the Arts drose@dlcwest.com http://donrose.xoasis.com/ 3004 Grant Rd. REGINA, SK S4S 5G7 306-352-3620 or 1-888-29t-uner From A440A@aol.com Mon Nov 20 11:02:00 2000 From: A440A@aol.com (A440A@aol.com) Date: Mon Nov 20 04:02 MST 2000 Subject: Joubert Don writes: >>In the absence of contact with the artist I decided that ET would be the safe bet--as he had tried the piano and found it accepteable in ET. I just wanted to try to go that *extra* mile.<< Greetings, This is the smart thing to do. If the pianist is not accustomed to a change of temperament, it will often throw them for a loop. This is Definitely NOT a thing to do on stage. It can have as large an effect as changing the regulation between rehearsal and performance. That "extra mile" can be an "alien invasion" if the artist is not prepared. Music played on well tempered pianos feels differently than on equally tempered one, at least, according to my customers. Regards, Ed Foote RPT From jbaird@fgi.net Mon Nov 20 15:41:00 2000 From: jbaird@fgi.net (John Baird) Date: Mon Nov 20 08:41 MST 2000 Subject: Six new Steinway legs for sale, cheap We have finished installing the short legs and Renner casters on our two new Steinway Bs, so the original standard legs, sockets and casters are available. These legs are for Steinway Bs or Ds. You would need to check with Steinway if these are adaptable to other models. These six legs are in perfect condition as these pianos were delivered new last December 1999. The only things not included are: 1) The lock plates--I had to remove them to use on our new short legs. You can of course use the ones from your old legs. 2) 3 of the 4 brass screws holding the caster sockets--the new sockets require only 3 screws, so I was able to leave you one screw per socket. Although we will likely be happy with just about any reasonable offer, I would like to give an idea of the value of what we have here. These prices are from the Steinway Parts Price List: 026611 EA LEG W/O HDW EBONY FIN B & D 274.00 008760 EA CASTER BRASS B, D & K 34.00 008739 EA CASTER SOCKETS FOR 8760 4.00 TOTAL - one leg 312.00 TOTAL - six legs (not including shipping) 6 @ $312 = $1,872.00 I am certain our administrator will accept an offer for a fraction of this amount that is not unreasonable. Just for kicks, test us with an unreasonably low offer! Please check with your administrators. When they are figuring the total amount for this, please have them include an amount for shipping (I don't have an estimate for UPS) and $130 for packaging and handling. The legs and casters are now in the two original cartons that the short legs came in. To ship them UPS I would have to modify (enlarge) the cartons and take them to UPS. It would take some doing. If a staff person or student from your university were passing through Decatur, these expenses could be avoided. John Baird, RPT Millikin University Decatur, Illinois jbaird@fgi.net From nhunt@jagat.com Tue Nov 21 12:52:00 2000 From: nhunt@jagat.com (Newton Hunt) Date: Tue Nov 21 05:52 MST 2000 Subject: M$ Word WordStar, my, my, but I haven't heard that name in a long time. Too bad about DR DOS. Send it ASCII, everyone can read that. Have a nice day. Newton From nhunt@jagat.com Tue Nov 21 12:58:00 2000 From: nhunt@jagat.com (Newton Hunt) Date: Tue Nov 21 05:58 MST 2000 Subject: M$ Word Well, Jim, maybe _I_ should get Eudora again. I haven't had it since moving from Telix way back when. Newton From nhunt@jagat.com Tue Nov 21 13:04:00 2000 From: nhunt@jagat.com (Newton Hunt) Date: Tue Nov 21 06:04 MST 2000 Subject: M$ Word Hi David, Bowing and scraping will get you somewhere. Dr.'s office likely. Good ol' WP 5.1. I don't think anyone has come out with a program with that much power and ease of use. Give me them old f-keys command strokes anytime. I loved doing macros in it. Still use one or two. Love to all. Newton From harvey@greenwood.net Tue Nov 21 14:42:00 2000 From: harvey@greenwood.net (harvey) Date: Tue Nov 21 07:42 MST 2000 Subject: M$ Word Before you do that, Newt, have a look at: It's powerful. It's *freeware*, and there are DOS, Win, and Mac versions. And, to keep this a little bit on-topic: - The Pmail author worked at a university, and; - wrote the program -for- the university (when they ran out of budget -- sound familiar?); - is still being used in many universities. -jh- At 07:53 AM 11/21/00 -0500, you wrote: >Well, Jim, maybe _I_ should get Eudora again. I haven't had >it since moving from Telix way back when. > > Newton From nhunt@jagat.com Tue Nov 21 15:26:00 2000 From: nhunt@jagat.com (Newton Hunt) Date: Tue Nov 21 08:26 MST 2000 Subject: M$ Word Looks good to me. Will it work with Netscape? Later Newton harvey wrote: > > Before you do that, Newt, have a look at: > > > > It's powerful. It's *freeware*, and there are DOS, Win, and Mac versions. > > And, to keep this a little bit on-topic: > - The Pmail author worked at a university, and; > - wrote the program -for- the university (when they ran out of budget -- > sound familiar?); > - is still being used in many universities. > > -jh- > > At 07:53 AM 11/21/00 -0500, you wrote: > >Well, Jim, maybe _I_ should get Eudora again. I haven't had > >it since moving from Telix way back when. > > > > Newton From atodd@UH.EDU Tue Nov 21 16:16:00 2000 From: atodd@UH.EDU (Avery Todd) Date: Tue Nov 21 09:16 MST 2000 Subject: Shop Cups List, Does anyone know of a source of the shop cups as used for grand piano legs to replace the wheels, but without the spindle in the middle? I'm considering getting 4 to put under the legs of our harpsichord when they have to be moved from room to room, instead of always moving them on a dolly. Thanks. Avery From drose@dlcwest.com Tue Nov 21 19:09:00 2000 From: drose@dlcwest.com (Don) Date: Tue Nov 21 12:09 MST 2000 Subject: pegasus Hi Harvey, Pegasus is one of those programs that *watches* where you go sending data without asking you. At 09:38 AM 11/21/2000 -0500, you wrote: >Before you do that, Newt, have a look at: > > > >It's powerful. It's *freeware*, and there are DOS, Win, and Mac versions. > >And, to keep this a little bit on-topic: >- The Pmail author worked at a university, and; >- wrote the program -for- the university (when they ran out of budget -- >sound familiar?); >- is still being used in many universities. > > >-jh- > > >At 07:53 AM 11/21/00 -0500, you wrote: >>Well, Jim, maybe _I_ should get Eudora again. I haven't had >>it since moving from Telix way back when. >> >> Newton > > > Regards, Don Rose, B.Mus., A.M.U.S., A.MUS., R.M.T., R.P.T. Tuner for the Saskatchewan Centre of the Arts drose@dlcwest.com http://donrose.xoasis.com/ 3004 Grant Rd. REGINA, SK S4S 5G7 306-352-3620 or 1-888-29t-uner From dempsey@ezwv.com Tue Nov 21 22:55:00 2000 From: dempsey@ezwv.com (Paul E. Dempsey) Date: Tue Nov 21 15:55 MST 2000 Subject: Shop Cups Avery, I have several sets of shop cups that came sith the spindle. The spindles are easily removed. -----Original Message----- From: Avery Todd To: caut@ptg.org Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 9:20 AM Subject: Shop Cups >List, > > Does anyone know of a source of the shop cups >as used for grand piano legs to replace the wheels, >but without the spindle in the middle? > I'm considering getting 4 to put under the legs >of our harpsichord when they have to be moved from >room to room, instead of always moving them on a >dolly. > Thanks. > >Avery > From tim.coates@wapin.com Tue Nov 21 22:57:00 2000 From: tim.coates@wapin.com (Tim Coates) Date: Tue Nov 21 15:57 MST 2000 Subject: Shop Cups My experience has not been good using shop cups instead of a carriage or dolly. They are great in the shop, but they make the legs take too much stress as a permanent solution. I'm talking about pianos here, not harpsichords, but I'd be even more scared to break a leg on a harpsichord. I haven't permanently installed a set on a piano, but I've had to pick up to the pieces from the technicians who did. It says clearly on the description from Jansen's "they don't replace carriages". If you are very careful they will work, but all it takes is the one person who is not careful. Tim Coates University of South Dakota We like our winters. It keeps the riff-raff out. Avery Todd wrote: > List, > > Does anyone know of a source of the shop cups > as used for grand piano legs to replace the wheels, > but without the spindle in the middle? > I'm considering getting 4 to put under the legs > of our harpsichord when they have to be moved from > room to room, instead of always moving them on a > dolly. > Thanks. > > Avery From chapmajd@wfu.edu Wed Nov 22 01:04:00 2000 From: chapmajd@wfu.edu (John D. Chapman) Date: Tue Nov 21 18:04 MST 2000 Subject: THUD Just tuned a S&S D brought in by the dealership for a Brahms concerto with the symphony. Notes 50,51,52,&53 (last four in agraff section, just above A440) had an unpleasant pronounced THUD when played above forte. This is the same THUD which is always there lurking behind piano tone but usually not dominating it. I checked keyframe front, back, and glides, checked for loose hammers, held up dampers heads by hand and played the note to see if it was a damper problem and it was not, checked damper upstop rail, seated strings on bridge, reshaped hammers to that nice S&S pointy shape, tried needling, tried juicing, switched a couple of hammers from a few notes below where the sound is good just to see if it was a hammer problem and it was not. What have I missed? The one thing I didn't do which might have help diagnose the problem was to pull the action in and out to change the strike point. What do you think? John D. Chapman RPT Wake Forest University Winston-Salem NC From baldyam@sk.sympatico.ca Wed Nov 22 01:27:00 2000 From: baldyam@sk.sympatico.ca (Roger Jolly) Date: Tue Nov 21 18:27 MST 2000 Subject: THUD Hi John, Is the rear of the key frame slapping up against the dag??? To check use a long thin bladed screw driver and press down on the rear of the frame, whilst playing the note hard. Also the top of the unacorda lever if it is too long can slap against the top of the keyframe. Press the pedal firmly and listen for any changes. Smear a thin coat of white protech grease on to the top of the lever and check to see if any transfers to the under side of the frame. Just some ideas Roger At 08:02 PM 21/11/00 -0500, you wrote: >Just tuned a S&S D brought in by the dealership for a Brahms concerto with >the symphony. Notes 50,51,52,&53 (last four in agraff section, just above >A440) had an unpleasant pronounced THUD when played above forte. This is >the same THUD which is always there lurking behind piano tone but usually >not dominating it. I checked keyframe front, back, and glides, checked >for loose hammers, held up dampers heads by hand and played the note to >see if it was a damper problem and it was not, checked damper upstop >rail, seated strings on bridge, reshaped hammers to that nice S&S pointy >shape, tried needling, tried juicing, switched a couple of hammers from a >few notes below where the sound is good just to see if it was a hammer >problem and it was not. What have I missed? The one thing I didn't do >which might have help diagnose the problem was to pull the action in and >out to change the strike point. What do you think? > >John D. Chapman RPT >Wake Forest University >Winston-Salem NC > Roger Jolly Saskatoon, Canada. 306-665-0213 Fax 652-0505 From hgreeley@stanford.edu Wed Nov 22 02:07:00 2000 From: hgreeley@stanford.edu (Horace Greeley) Date: Tue Nov 21 19:07 MST 2000 Subject: THUD Good Evening, John, I like Roger's ideas a lot. Also, could you describe "THUD" a bit more? Does is vary with the blow? Seem to center around any particular pitch/physical area? If this is a fairly recent instrument (would seem to be a C&A D, from your note), the current state of forefinishing could easily leave odd and/or unusual areas of the keyframe and keybed in much too close proximity. I think that the one thing the problem is not is probably hammers. Please keep us on the edge of our seats! Best. Horace At 07:17 PM 11/21/2000 -0600, you wrote: >Hi John, > Is the rear of the key frame slapping up against the dag??? To >check use a long thin bladed screw driver and press down on the rear of the >frame, whilst playing the note hard. Also the top of the unacorda lever if >it is too long can slap against the top of the keyframe. Press the pedal >firmly and listen for any changes. Smear a thin coat of white protech >grease on to the top of the lever and check to see if any transfers to the >under side of the frame. >Just some ideas >Roger > > >At 08:02 PM 21/11/00 -0500, you wrote: > >Just tuned a S&S D brought in by the dealership for a Brahms concerto with > >the symphony. Notes 50,51,52,&53 (last four in agraff section, just above > >A440) had an unpleasant pronounced THUD when played above forte. This is > >the same THUD which is always there lurking behind piano tone but usually > >not dominating it. I checked keyframe front, back, and glides, checked > >for loose hammers, held up dampers heads by hand and played the note to > >see if it was a damper problem and it was not, checked damper upstop > >rail, seated strings on bridge, reshaped hammers to that nice S&S pointy > >shape, tried needling, tried juicing, switched a couple of hammers from a > >few notes below where the sound is good just to see if it was a hammer > >problem and it was not. What have I missed? The one thing I didn't do > >which might have help diagnose the problem was to pull the action in and > >out to change the strike point. What do you think? > > > >John D. Chapman RPT > >Wake Forest University > >Winston-Salem NC > > >Roger Jolly >Saskatoon, Canada. >306-665-0213 >Fax 652-0505 From sbrady@u.washington.edu Wed Nov 22 02:19:00 2000 From: sbrady@u.washington.edu (S. Brady) Date: Tue Nov 21 19:19 MST 2000 Subject: THUD John, If you find it isn't a keyframe/shift lever noise, check to see if the sound gets better when you put firm pressure on the bridge cap at the end of the section. If it does, let down the tension on those notes and you'll probably find a loose glue joint between cap and bridge body. Another thing to look at is clearance between the bridge and the plate. If the bridge is touching the plate, you'll get a very strange sound. Good luck, Steve On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, John D. Chapman wrote: > Just tuned a S&S D brought in by the dealership for a Brahms concerto with > the symphony. Notes 50,51,52,&53 (last four in agraff section, just above > A440) had an unpleasant pronounced THUD when played above forte. This is > the same THUD which is always there lurking behind piano tone but usually > not dominating it. I checked keyframe front, back, and glides, checked > for loose hammers, held up dampers heads by hand and played the note to > see if it was a damper problem and it was not, checked damper upstop > rail, seated strings on bridge, reshaped hammers to that nice S&S pointy > shape, tried needling, tried juicing, switched a couple of hammers from a > few notes below where the sound is good just to see if it was a hammer > problem and it was not. What have I missed? The one thing I didn't do > which might have help diagnose the problem was to pull the action in and > out to change the strike point. What do you think? > > John D. Chapman RPT > Wake Forest University > Winston-Salem NC > > _________________________________________________ Steve Brady, RPT Head Piano Technician, University of Washington Editor, Piano Technicians Journal From cramer@BrandonU.CA Wed Nov 22 02:52:00 2000 From: cramer@BrandonU.CA (Mark Cramer) Date: Tue Nov 21 19:52 MST 2000 Subject: S&S: key-frame return spring Hello all, Today I managed to find the elusive source of shift-pedal squeeks and groans in a B, and with careful effort and attention actually made it worse! Once I had determined the cause (spring against (wooden) key frame), I carefully sanded the side smooth, applied a generous coat of DAG, and burnished with a cloth. It worked instantly, and lasted about 3 minutes! Once the DAG was well burnished, it began to groan as before, but louder! And now, in addition to the fundamental, there were additional squeeks a major 3rd above and major 2nd below!? At a loss, I worked teflon powder into the graphite and with vigorous use, the noise has not returned. Tefloning and testing the two contact points of the spring seperately helped verify the source, as one "note" of the non-musical "interval" disappeared with the first treatment, then the remaining two. I fear this remedy will not last though, so what is your favourite tried & true, long-lasting, never-fail, method? Thanks for your suggestions, Mark Cramer, Brandon University From chapmajd@wfu.edu Wed Nov 22 03:20:00 2000 From: chapmajd@wfu.edu (John D. Chapman) Date: Tue Nov 21 20:20 MST 2000 Subject: THUD Horace, "Also, could you describe "THUD" a bit more? Does is vary with the blow? Seem to center around any particular pitch/physical area? If this is a fairly recent instrument (would seem to be a C&A D, from your note), the current state of forefinishing could easily leave odd and/or unusual areas of the keyframe and keybed in much too close proximity." The THUD of these four consecutive notes seems to increase with increased blow and is objectionable only above forte. The instrument is S&S 141. John From hgreeley@stanford.edu Wed Nov 22 03:32:00 2000 From: hgreeley@stanford.edu (Horace Greeley) Date: Tue Nov 21 20:32 MST 2000 Subject: THUD Steve & John, Yes - I've also heard a loose rib make these kinds of nasty noises. Along the lines of Steve's second question, I had a very illusive one years ago (on a B) which turned out to be the bridge pins binding against the under side of the plate (you know where) when the humidity was just right. The thing that made that one hard to find is that I never found an intermediate point (humidity-wise) at which it would simply buzz...just thud, or fine...thank you very much. Curiouser and curiouser... Horace At 06:17 PM 11/21/2000 -0800, you wrote: >John, > >If you find it isn't a keyframe/shift lever noise, check to see if the >sound gets better when you put firm pressure on the bridge cap at the end >of the section. If it does, let down the tension on those notes and >you'll probably find a loose glue joint between cap and bridge body. > >Another thing to look at is clearance between the bridge and the plate. If >the bridge is touching the plate, you'll get a very strange sound. > >Good luck, > >Steve > > > >On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, John D. Chapman wrote: > > > Just tuned a S&S D brought in by the dealership for a Brahms concerto with > > the symphony. Notes 50,51,52,&53 (last four in agraff section, just above > > A440) had an unpleasant pronounced THUD when played above forte. This is > > the same THUD which is always there lurking behind piano tone but usually > > not dominating it. I checked keyframe front, back, and glides, checked > > for loose hammers, held up dampers heads by hand and played the note to > > see if it was a damper problem and it was not, checked damper upstop > > rail, seated strings on bridge, reshaped hammers to that nice S&S pointy > > shape, tried needling, tried juicing, switched a couple of hammers from a > > few notes below where the sound is good just to see if it was a hammer > > problem and it was not. What have I missed? The one thing I didn't do > > which might have help diagnose the problem was to pull the action in and > > out to change the strike point. What do you think? > > > > John D. Chapman RPT > > Wake Forest University > > Winston-Salem NC > > > > > > >_________________________________________________ > >Steve Brady, RPT >Head Piano Technician, University of Washington >Editor, Piano Technicians Journal > > > From hgreeley@stanford.edu Wed Nov 22 03:37:00 2000 From: hgreeley@stanford.edu (Horace Greeley) Date: Tue Nov 21 20:37 MST 2000 Subject: THUD John, Thanks very much for the quick response. I just dashed off something after seeing Steve's post. At 10:19 PM 11/21/2000 -0500, you wrote: >The THUD of these four consecutive notes seems to increase with increased >blow and is objectionable only above forte. The instrument is S&S 141. I like Steve's idea of the board being bound someplace the most, so far. Also, that fits what you are describing. I wonder if movers, at some point, have lost one of the leg wedges... Something sufficiently localized that it affects only four notes, and only above forte does suggest something lodged against the board, rather than something being loose, I think. Nothing ventured... Horace From baldyam@sk.sympatico.ca Wed Nov 22 03:40:00 2000 From: baldyam@sk.sympatico.ca (Roger Jolly) Date: Tue Nov 21 20:40 MST 2000 Subject: S&S: key-frame return spring Hi Mark, Sand the frame clean, burnish with paraffin wax, clean the spring. Remove spring screws, and use a felt balance rail punching to act as a washer. this will ensure that the noise is not coming from the spring and screws. Hope this helps. Roger At 08:54 PM 21/11/00 -0600, you wrote: >Hello all, > >Today I managed to find the elusive source of shift-pedal squeeks and groans >in a B, and with careful effort and attention actually made it worse! > >Once I had determined the cause (spring against (wooden) key frame), I >carefully sanded the side smooth, applied a generous coat of DAG, and >burnished with a cloth. > >It worked instantly, and lasted about 3 minutes! Once the DAG was well >burnished, it began to groan as before, but louder! And now, in addition to >the fundamental, there were additional squeeks a major 3rd above and major >2nd below!? > >At a loss, I worked teflon powder into the graphite and with vigorous use, >the noise has not returned. Tefloning and testing the two contact points of >the spring seperately helped verify the source, as one "note" of the >non-musical "interval" disappeared with the first treatment, then the >remaining two. > >I fear this remedy will not last though, so what is your favourite tried & >true, long-lasting, never-fail, method? > >Thanks for your suggestions, > >Mark Cramer, >Brandon University > Roger Jolly Saskatoon, Canada. 306-665-0213 Fax 652-0505 From thepianoarts@home.com Wed Nov 22 03:46:00 2000 From: thepianoarts@home.com (thepianoarts) Date: Tue Nov 21 20:46 MST 2000 Subject: S&S: key-frame return spring Hi Mark, I am sure you have located the source correctly, but after much trial and error, mostly error, I now treat the back verticle edge of the key frame where it could touch the dags, etc. Sanding would work too. It is a tough one (noise) to trace, but common. Just courious... Was the spring singing, or the wood frame resonating? (How about polishing the spring?) Dan Reed Dallas From jonpage@mediaone.net Wed Nov 22 03:47:00 2000 From: jonpage@mediaone.net (Jon Page) Date: Tue Nov 21 20:47 MST 2000 Subject: S&S: key-frame return spring ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment Remove the spring and polish the contact surface. Make sure the screws are tight. Jon Page At 08:54 PM 11/21/2000 -0600, you wrote: >Hello all, > >Today I managed to find the elusive source of shift-pedal squeeks and groans >in a B, and with careful effort and attention actually made it worse! > >Once I had determined the cause (spring against (wooden) key frame), I >carefully sanded the side smooth, applied a generous coat of DAG, and >burnished with a cloth. > >It worked instantly, and lasted about 3 minutes! Once the DAG was well >burnished, it began to groan as before, but louder! And now, in addition to >the fundamental, there were additional squeeks a major 3rd above and major >2nd below!? > >At a loss, I worked teflon powder into the graphite and with vigorous use, >the noise has not returned. Tefloning and testing the two contact points of >the spring seperately helped verify the source, as one "note" of the >non-musical "interval" disappeared with the first treatment, then the >remaining two. > >I fear this remedy will not last though, so what is your favourite tried & >true, long-lasting, never-fail, method? > >Thanks for your suggestions, > >Mark Cramer, >Brandon University Jon Page, piano technician Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Mass. mailto:jonpage@mediaone.net ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ptg.org/pipermail/caut/attachments/64/79/c9/a5/attachment.htm ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment-- From drose@dlcwest.com Wed Nov 22 03:50:00 2000 From: drose@dlcwest.com (Don) Date: Tue Nov 21 20:50 MST 2000 Subject: S&S: key-frame return spring Hi Mark, Sometimes talc will work better than powdered telfon. Metal to wood "shrieks" are certain annoying. Something else that does work is a thin piece of felt. It does wear thru eventually. You might also consider weakening the return spring a little bit. At 08:54 PM 11/21/2000 -0600, you wrote: >Hello all, > >Today I managed to find the elusive source of shift-pedal squeeks and groans >in a B, and with careful effort and attention actually made it worse! > >Once I had determined the cause (spring against (wooden) key frame), I >carefully sanded the side smooth, applied a generous coat of DAG, and >burnished with a cloth. > >It worked instantly, and lasted about 3 minutes! Once the DAG was well >burnished, it began to groan as before, but louder! And now, in addition to >the fundamental, there were additional squeeks a major 3rd above and major >2nd below!? > >At a loss, I worked teflon powder into the graphite and with vigorous use, >the noise has not returned. Tefloning and testing the two contact points of >the spring seperately helped verify the source, as one "note" of the >non-musical "interval" disappeared with the first treatment, then the >remaining two. > >I fear this remedy will not last though, so what is your favourite tried & >true, long-lasting, never-fail, method? > >Thanks for your suggestions, > >Mark Cramer, >Brandon University > > > > Regards, Don Rose, B.Mus., A.M.U.S., A.MUS., R.M.T., R.P.T. Tuner for the Saskatchewan Centre of the Arts drose@dlcwest.com http://donrose.xoasis.com/ 3004 Grant Rd. REGINA, SK S4S 5G7 306-352-3620 or 1-888-29t-uner From ilvey@jps.net Wed Nov 22 04:47:00 2000 From: ilvey@jps.net (David Ilvedson, RPT) Date: Tue Nov 21 21:47 MST 2000 Subject: key-frame return spring I take it you are referring to action return spring vs. treble side of the keyframe? I would scrap off all the DAG and use nothing but microfine teflon powder. DAG has a habit of falling off whenever you are over a white carpet and is really unnecessary these days...OK maybe bridge tops. Also make sure that the spring itself isn't moving! David I. From: Mark Cramer To: caut@ptg.org Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 7:18 PM Subject: S&S: key-frame return spring >Hello all, > >Today I managed to find the elusive source of shift-pedal squeeks and groans >in a B, and with careful effort and attention actually made it worse! > >Once I had determined the cause (spring against (wooden) key frame), I >carefully sanded the side smooth, applied a generous coat of DAG, and >burnished with a cloth. > >It worked instantly, and lasted about 3 minutes! Once the DAG was well >burnished, it began to groan as before, but louder! And now, in addition to >the fundamental, there were additional squeeks a major 3rd above and major >2nd below!? > >At a loss, I worked teflon powder into the graphite and with vigorous use, >the noise has not returned. Tefloning and testing the two contact points of >the spring seperately helped verify the source, as one "note" of the >non-musical "interval" disappeared with the first treatment, then the >remaining two. > >I fear this remedy will not last though, so what is your favourite tried & >true, long-lasting, never-fail, method? > >Thanks for your suggestions, > >Mark Cramer, >Brandon University > > > From moffattr@cadvision.com Wed Nov 22 07:52:00 2000 From: moffattr@cadvision.com (Robert Moffatt) Date: Wed Nov 22 00:52 MST 2000 Subject: THUD ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Jolly To: Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 6:17 PM Subject: Re: THUD > Hi John, > Is the rear of the key frame slapping up against the dag??? > Roger Roger, Not to be too nit picky, but some are talking about grammar etc. The proper / original name for DAG, is "dog block"! But then we're getting into the British /American thing!! Oh well. Bob From jonpage@mediaone.net Wed Nov 22 13:12:00 2000 From: jonpage@mediaone.net (Jon Page) Date: Wed Nov 22 06:12 MST 2000 Subject: S&S: key-frame return spring ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment Measure the height above the keybed that the shift level extends. Then measure the depth of the notch where it resides. Two days of frame bedding all for naught because the lever lifted the key frame, the noise did not come from that area either. Then once the lever was lowered, the ends of the keyframe knocked now that the 'bow' was out. Just another 'possible'. Happy Hunting, Jon Page PS I_always_check that relationship before bedding the frame now. At 09:43 PM 11/21/2000 -0500, you wrote: >Hi Mark, > >I am sure you have located the source correctly, but after much trial and >error, mostly error, I now treat the back verticle edge of the key frame >where it could touch the dags, etc. Sanding would work too. It is a tough >one (noise) to trace, but common. > >Just courious... >Was the spring singing, or the wood frame resonating? (How about polishing >the spring?) > >Dan Reed >Dallas ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ptg.org/pipermail/caut/attachments/42/7c/60/0f/attachment.htm ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment-- From atodd@UH.EDU Wed Nov 22 14:18:00 2000 From: atodd@UH.EDU (Avery Todd) Date: Wed Nov 22 07:18 MST 2000 Subject: Harpsichord string breakage List, I have our Martin harpsichord in the shop right now to replace some broken strings. I've replaced one 8' and one 4' succesfully. My problem is that another 4' keeps breaking just as I get it to pitch. The keyboard is in the correct position and the wire is the correct one, all according to the scale sheet that came with it. It's a .28 mm yellow wire. So was the other 4' and I had no problem. Three have broken already and I only have one left until we reorder. There might be some the same size in our Phillips harpsichord supply but I haven't checked that yet. There are still 2 other strings besides this one, to replace. I've replaced quite a few strings over the years and have never had this problem before. Any ideas what I might be doing wrong? I'm about ready to call in a "real" harpsichord technician. Happy Thanksgiving all. Avery P.S. I've used the Prinz HT for a Vivaldi and a Messiah performance. By request, am using 1/6 Comma Meantone next week for a Collegium Musicum performance of Italian Baroque music. From purdy@oak.cats.ohiou.edu Wed Nov 22 14:33:00 2000 From: purdy@oak.cats.ohiou.edu (Christopher D. Purdy) Date: Wed Nov 22 07:33 MST 2000 Subject: THUD >This is >the same THUD which is always there lurking behind piano tone but usually >not dominating it. This sentence makes me think of "plate noise" or resonance. I think there was a discussion here about that not long ago. Rap on a plate strut with your knuckle and see if that sounds familiar. chris -Christopher D. Purdy R.P.T. -School of Music, Ohio University -Athens, OH 45701 -purdy@ohio.edu -(740) 593-1656 office -(740) 593-1429 fax From chapmajd@wfu.edu Wed Nov 22 14:36:00 2000 From: chapmajd@wfu.edu (John D. Chapman) Date: Wed Nov 22 07:36 MST 2000 Subject: THUD Horace, Roger, Steve, Thank you for the fascinating suggestions. It will be next week before I see C&A 141 again and am anxious to try these approaches. In the meantime can you think of anything else which might apply? John Chapman RPT Wake Forest University Winston-Salem NC From fssturm@unm.edu Wed Nov 22 14:48:00 2000 From: fssturm@unm.edu (Fred Sturm) Date: Wed Nov 22 07:48 MST 2000 Subject: Harpsichord string breakage Avery, Where is it breaking? Do tuning pins have beckets? Are you "crossing over" a bit of vertically placed string when making the coil? Not having details, my first guess would be breaking at the pin due to additional stress caused by wire crossing over wire, creating a kink just where the stress is highest. Brass wire is particularly prone to this problem. Solution if there is a becket is simply not to cross wire (unnecessary if you have enough coils). Without becket, don't allow the final coil to cross, either cutting or prying the last bit outward. (Hope that makes sense). In a pinch, use next smaller diameter wire. Fred Sturm University of New Mexico Avery Todd wrote: > > List, > > I have our Martin harpsichord in the shop right > now to replace some broken strings. I've replaced > one 8' and one 4' succesfully. My problem is that > another 4' keeps breaking just as I get it to pitch. > The keyboard is in the correct position and the > wire is the correct one, all according to the scale > sheet that came with it. > It's a .28 mm yellow wire. So was the other 4' > and I had no problem. Three have broken already and > I only have one left until we reorder. There might > be some the same size in our Phillips harpsichord > supply but I haven't checked that yet. > There are still 2 other strings besides this one, > to replace. I've replaced quite a few strings over > the years and have never had this problem before. > Any ideas what I might be doing wrong? I'm about > ready to call in a "real" harpsichord technician. > Happy Thanksgiving all. > > Avery > > P.S. I've used the Prinz HT for a Vivaldi and a > Messiah performance. By request, am using 1/6 > Comma Meantone next week for a Collegium Musicum > performance of Italian Baroque music. From drose@dlcwest.com Wed Nov 22 15:27:00 2000 From: drose@dlcwest.com (Don) Date: Wed Nov 22 08:27 MST 2000 Subject: THUD Hi, Once I tuned a piano where the movers had "stuffed" an elastic band between the beams and the soundboard. Response seemed to suffer *grin*. It was only by accident that I found it. I wondered why the piano was so dead in one area (it was a yamaha c7) Is the piano on a concrete floor by any chance? Try some wood under the legs if it is. Another (distant) possibility is standing waves in the room at the frequency around those four notes--try shifting the position of the piano and see if the tone improves. At 09:35 AM 11/22/2000 -0500, you wrote >Horace, Roger, Steve, > Thank you for the fascinating suggestions. It will be next week >before I see C&A 141 again and am anxious to try these approaches. In the >meantime can you think of anything else which might apply? >John Chapman RPT >Wake Forest University >Winston-Salem NC > > > Regards, Don Rose, B.Mus., A.M.U.S., A.MUS., R.M.T., R.P.T. Tuner for the Saskatchewan Centre of the Arts drose@dlcwest.com http://donrose.xoasis.com/ 3004 Grant Rd. REGINA, SK S4S 5G7 306-352-3620 or 1-888-29t-uner From chapmajd@wfu.edu Wed Nov 22 15:37:00 2000 From: chapmajd@wfu.edu (John D. Chapman) Date: Wed Nov 22 08:37 MST 2000 Subject: Harpsichord string breakage Avery, Harpsichord tone is best when the string is very close to breaking point. If you see a pattern of breakage (I always put a piano front rail paper punching at the base of the harpsichord tuning pin of a replaced string with the date of replacement penciled on it) you might want to get in touch with Martin about possibly changing the string size in that area. Good luck. John Chapman RPT Wake Forest University Winston-Salem NC From birketts@wright.aps.uoguelph.ca Wed Nov 22 16:04:00 2000 From: birketts@wright.aps.uoguelph.ca (Stephen Birkett) Date: Wed Nov 22 09:04 MST 2000 Subject: Harpsichord string breakage Avery, 1) what is the speaking length? 2) what is the note? 3) what is the overall pitch? 4) what is the diameter? 5) what is the string material? Stephen Stephen Birkett Fortepianos Authentic Reproductions of 18th and 19th Century Pianos 464 Winchester Drive Waterloo, Ontario Canada N2T 1K5 tel: 519-885-2228 mailto: birketts@wright.aps.uoguelph.ca From hgreeley@stanford.edu Wed Nov 22 16:10:00 2000 From: hgreeley@stanford.edu (Horace Greeley) Date: Wed Nov 22 09:10 MST 2000 Subject: THUD Good Morning, John, Christopher's mention of plate struts calls to mind a phenomenon which I am told was mythical...a creation of my mind (as it were): In the mid-70s, a certain well known Eastern piano maker did not experiment with vacuum cast plates. The non-existent 7' pianos from this alleged period had a nasty habit of having their plates fail - mostly through the webbing of the first treble section, just above the plate strut, and occasionally into the capo. The sound I was not hearing from these instruments in such cases often could have been described (had it existed), as a "thud"dy kind of sound. Something between a soundboard which had had something wedged between it and the frame and a steel-wound bass string on an older SD or SD6 that was about to break. Not necessarily relevant to what you are facing now, as I think that the non-experiment was so sufficiently unsuccessful as to be self-limiting. However, I am not quite sure that I would arbitrarily rule out any possibility. Didn't Holmes say something to Watson about once one rules out the things which can be proven not to have occurred that whatever is left, no matter how impossible, is where to start looking? Sorry, it's been too long... I am most curious about what you might find. Best. Horace At 09:35 AM 11/22/00 -0500, you wrote: >Horace, Roger, Steve, > Thank you for the fascinating suggestions. It will be next week >before I see C&A 141 again and am anxious to try these approaches. In the >meantime can you think of anything else which might apply? >John Chapman RPT >Wake Forest University >Winston-Salem NC From baldyam@sk.sympatico.ca Wed Nov 22 16:17:00 2000 From: baldyam@sk.sympatico.ca (Roger Jolly) Date: Wed Nov 22 09:17 MST 2000 Subject: THUD Oh yeh! those L shape thingee's, with yucky black stuff on um, in the guts of the pianer. At 12:48 AM 22/11/00 -0700, you wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Roger Jolly >To: >Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 6:17 PM >Subject: Re: THUD > > >> Hi John, >> Is the rear of the key frame slapping up against the dag??? > Roger > >Roger, > >Not to be too nit picky, but some are talking about grammar etc. >The proper / original name for DAG, is "dog block"! >But then we're getting into the British /American thing!! Oh well. > >Bob > Roger Jolly Saskatoon, Canada. 306-665-0213 Fax 652-0505 From baldyam@sk.sympatico.ca Wed Nov 22 16:17:00 2000 From: baldyam@sk.sympatico.ca (Roger Jolly) Date: Wed Nov 22 09:17 MST 2000 Subject: S&S: key-frame return spring ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment > > > Jon Page > > PS I_always_check that relationship before bedding the frame now. Hi Jon, Funny how experience is a great teacher. I've been caught a couple of times on this one. Just a slow learner I guess. Before the sand paper comes out, I have a little key bed check list. 1. Lever clearance. 2. Spring condition and security. Also smooth action sides. 3. Bass stop block and hammer position. 4. Dag/frame wear. Use a few layers of masking tape on the top of the frame to check this. If the graphite on the frame is worn through or not worn at all, this will be a clue 5. Keybed/frame cleanliness. Once had a paper clip half imbedded into the rear rail of a Yamaha that gave me some grief. 6. Check the bed for straightness with a 48" straight edge.This can yield some clues for what you have to deal with. 7. Check that no frame/action stack screws are protruding. 8. Finally, back out all glide bolts before starting. Suprising how many pianos clean up the front and back rail when doing this. And then I usually find a tapered key height. You can be caught out very easily with key frames, the 'knock or bow' is not always the cause of the problem, just the symptom. Moral of the story: Look before you leap. Roger Roger Jolly Saskatoon, Canada. 306-665-0213 Fax 652-0505 ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.ptg.org/pipermail/caut/attachments/cf/77/ae/c5/attachment.htm ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment-- From nhunt@jagat.com Wed Nov 22 17:08:00 2000 From: nhunt@jagat.com (Newton Hunt) Date: Wed Nov 22 10:08 MST 2000 Subject: Harpsichord string breakage _Where_ are the strings breaking? That is likely to tell us something. Newton From ed440@mindspring.com Wed Nov 22 17:23:00 2000 From: ed440@mindspring.com (Ed Sutton) Date: Wed Nov 22 10:23 MST 2000 Subject: Harpsichord string breakage Avery, Sometimes those little coils of yellow wire go bad over the years. Ed ---------- >From: Avery Todd >To: caut@ptg.org >Subject: Harpsichord string breakage >Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000, 8:14 AM > > List, > > I have our Martin harpsichord in the shop right > now to replace some broken strings. I've replaced > one 8' and one 4' succesfully. My problem is that > another 4' keeps breaking just as I get it to pitch. > The keyboard is in the correct position and the > wire is the correct one, all according to the scale > sheet that came with it. > It's a .28 mm yellow wire. So was the other 4' > and I had no problem. Three have broken already and > I only have one left until we reorder. There might > be some the same size in our Phillips harpsichord > supply but I haven't checked that yet. > There are still 2 other strings besides this one, > to replace. I've replaced quite a few strings over > the years and have never had this problem before. > Any ideas what I might be doing wrong? I'm about > ready to call in a "real" harpsichord technician. > Happy Thanksgiving all. > > Avery > > P.S. I've used the Prinz HT for a Vivaldi and a > Messiah performance. By request, am using 1/6 > Comma Meantone next week for a Collegium Musicum > performance of Italian Baroque music. From A440A@aol.com Wed Nov 22 18:48:00 2000 From: A440A@aol.com (A440A@aol.com) Date: Wed Nov 22 11:48 MST 2000 Subject: Harpsichord string breakage Avery writes: > Any ideas what I might be doing wrong? I'm about ready to call in a "real" harpsichord technician. Where are they breaking? Wondering, Ed From atodd@UH.EDU Wed Nov 22 18:53:00 2000 From: atodd@UH.EDU (Avery Todd) Date: Wed Nov 22 11:53 MST 2000 Subject: Harpsichord string breakage John, > Harpsichord tone is best when the string is very close to breaking >point. If you see a pattern of breakage (I always put a piano front rail >paper punching at the base of the harpsichord tuning pin of a replaced >string with the date of replacement penciled on it) you might want to get >in touch with Martin about possibly changing the string size in that area. > Good luck. >John Chapman RPT >Wake Forest University >Winston-Salem NC I really don't think that is the problem. The lowest broken 4' string is the first of that string size. Then after the next two broken ones, going up, there are still another 14 notes of the same size above it. Avery From atodd@UH.EDU Wed Nov 22 18:58:00 2000 From: atodd@UH.EDU (Avery Todd) Date: Wed Nov 22 11:58 MST 2000 Subject: Harpsichord string breakage Fred, They're all breaking at the pin. These tuning pins are the same "type" of pin as pianos have. Yes, they do have the becket. I don't _think_ I'm letting any cross over during the coiling and at the bottom of the coil, they spread out toward the bottom of the pin in order to have some bearing when the string crosses the bridge. > Where is it breaking? Do tuning pins have beckets? Are you "crossing >over" a bit of vertically placed string when making the coil? > Not having details, my first guess would be breaking at the pin due >to additional stress caused by wire crossing over wire, creating a kink >just where the stress is highest. Brass wire is particularly prone to >this problem. Solution if there is a becket is simply not to cross wire >(unnecessary if you have enough coils). Without becket, don't allow the >final coil to cross, either cutting or prying the last bit outward. >(Hope that makes sense). See my reply to John about this. Thanks for the reply. I'll definitely pay even closer attention to that possibility now. Avery > In a pinch, use next smaller diameter wire. >Fred Sturm >University of New Mexico > >Avery Todd wrote: >> >> List, >> >> I have our Martin harpsichord in the shop right >> now to replace some broken strings. I've replaced >> one 8' and one 4' succesfully. My problem is that >> another 4' keeps breaking just as I get it to pitch. >> The keyboard is in the correct position and the >> wire is the correct one, all according to the scale >> sheet that came with it. >> It's a .28 mm yellow wire. So was the other 4' >> and I had no problem. Three have broken already and >> I only have one left until we reorder. There might >> be some the same size in our Phillips harpsichord >> supply but I haven't checked that yet. >> There are still 2 other strings besides this one, >> to replace. I've replaced quite a few strings over >> the years and have never had this problem before. >> Any ideas what I might be doing wrong? I'm about >> ready to call in a "real" harpsichord technician. >> Happy Thanksgiving all. >> >> Avery From atodd@UH.EDU Wed Nov 22 19:19:00 2000 From: atodd@UH.EDU (Avery Todd) Date: Wed Nov 22 12:19 MST 2000 Subject: Harpsichord string breakage Hi Stephen, >1) what is the speaking length? The one I've been having the problem with is 31.5 centimeters. There is one below that (F#, note 26, which is the lowest note with the .28 wire) and one above that (A, note 41). >2) what is the note? Note 30 (Bb) on the harpsichord (5 octaves, F to F) (On a piano, would be our Bb3.) >3) what is the overall pitch? It was last tuned in the A-440 position to the Prinz HT. It has now been moved to the middle position (this one has 3 positions) as per the instruction sheet of wire sizes but has not been retuned yet. It's going to be in the 1/6 Comma Meantone at the A=415 position. >4) what is the diameter? .28 mm >5) what is the string material? Yellow. Brass, I assume. Avery P.S. It's called a Saxon Double on the sheet. >Stephen > >Stephen Birkett Fortepianos >Authentic Reproductions of 18th and 19th Century Pianos >464 Winchester Drive >Waterloo, Ontario >Canada N2T 1K5 >tel: 519-885-2228 >mailto: birketts@wright.aps.uoguelph.ca From atodd@UH.EDU Wed Nov 22 19:22:00 2000 From: atodd@UH.EDU (Avery Todd) Date: Wed Nov 22 12:22 MST 2000 Subject: Harpsichord string breakage Newton, In spite of what I said in a previous post, I just took a closer look and it seems like they're breaking at the upper bridge pin instead of the tuning pin. Sorry about the misinformation. Avery >_Where_ are the strings breaking? That is likely to tell us >something. > > Newton From atodd@UH.EDU Wed Nov 22 19:24:00 2000 From: atodd@UH.EDU (Avery Todd) Date: Wed Nov 22 12:24 MST 2000 Subject: Harpsichord string breakage Hi Ed, I've thought of that but I didn't think they were old enough for that to have happened. I'm not sure when these extras were bought but the date on the stringing scale sheet is February '95. Would that be the date of the harpsichord or something else? We're ordering some more, so maybe I'll find out if age was the problem. Thanks. Avery >Avery, >Sometimes those little coils of yellow wire go bad over the years. >Ed > >---------- >>From: Avery Todd >>To: caut@ptg.org >>Subject: Harpsichord string breakage >>Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000, 8:14 AM >> > >> List, >> >> I have our Martin harpsichord in the shop right >> now to replace some broken strings. I've replaced >> one 8' and one 4' succesfully. My problem is that >> another 4' keeps breaking just as I get it to pitch. >> The keyboard is in the correct position and the >> wire is the correct one, all according to the scale >> sheet that came with it. >> It's a .28 mm yellow wire. So was the other 4' >> and I had no problem. Three have broken already and >> I only have one left until we reorder. There might >> be some the same size in our Phillips harpsichord >> supply but I haven't checked that yet. >> There are still 2 other strings besides this one, >> to replace. I've replaced quite a few strings over >> the years and have never had this problem before. >> Any ideas what I might be doing wrong? I'm about >> ready to call in a "real" harpsichord technician. >> Happy Thanksgiving all. From nhunt@jagat.com Wed Nov 22 19:33:00 2000 From: nhunt@jagat.com (Newton Hunt) Date: Wed Nov 22 12:33 MST 2000 Subject: Harpsichord string breakage Avery, You are stringing using brass wire. It is far more breakable than steel. Too many bends and it breaks Too easily. Newton From birketts@wright.aps.uoguelph.ca Wed Nov 22 19:50:00 2000 From: birketts@wright.aps.uoguelph.ca (Stephen Birkett) Date: Wed Nov 22 12:50 MST 2000 Subject: Harpsichord string breakage Avery: > Yellow. Brass, I assume. > And what is the exact material of the wire that you are using? Rose brass? Phosphor-bronze? Something else? That can make quite a difference. Stephen Birkett Fortepianos Authentic Reproductions of 18th and 19th Century Pianos 464 Winchester Drive Waterloo, Ontario Canada N2T 1K5 tel: 519-885-2228 mailto: birketts@wright.aps.uoguelph.ca From Ted_Sambell@BanffCentre.AB.CA Wed Nov 22 20:15:00 2000 From: Ted_Sambell@BanffCentre.AB.CA (Sambell, Ted) Date: Wed Nov 22 13:15 MST 2000 Subject: key-frame return spring Hi Mark, Sometimes the contact points wear a flat spot on the keyframe return springs, and it might help to round them over with an emery cloth file then polish them on a buffing wheel. It happens more commonly on the pedal trap lever flat springs which were common on old grands. I discard them and fit coil springs instead. Of course, this cannot be done with the keyframe springs. It can be annoyimg when the spring was originally fitted if it was not partly recessed into the inner rim, because it will exert higher pressure than is needed. It also makes it more difficult to remove and replace the action. Regards, Ted -----Original Message----- From: David Ilvedson, RPT [mailto:ilvey@jps.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 9:46 PM To: caut@ptg.org Subject: Re: key-frame return spring I take it you are referring to action return spring vs. treble side of the keyframe? I would scrap off all the DAG and use nothing but microfine teflon powder. DAG has a habit of falling off whenever you are over a white carpet and is really unnecessary these days...OK maybe bridge tops. Also make sure that the spring itself isn't moving! David I. From: Mark Cramer To: caut@ptg.org Date: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 7:18 PM Subject: S&S: key-frame return spring >Hello all, > >Today I managed to find the elusive source of shift-pedal squeeks and groans >in a B, and with careful effort and attention actually made it worse! > >Once I had determined the cause (spring against (wooden) key frame), I >carefully sanded the side smooth, applied a generous coat of DAG, and >burnished with a cloth. > >It worked instantly, and lasted about 3 minutes! Once the DAG was well >burnished, it began to groan as before, but louder! And now, in addition to >the fundamental, there were additional squeeks a major 3rd above and major >2nd below!? > >At a loss, I worked teflon powder into the graphite and with vigorous use, >the noise has not returned. Tefloning and testing the two contact points of >the spring seperately helped verify the source, as one "note" of the >non-musical "interval" disappeared with the first treatment, then the >remaining two. > >I fear this remedy will not last though, so what is your favourite tried & >true, long-lasting, never-fail, method? > >Thanks for your suggestions, > >Mark Cramer, >Brandon University > > > From fssturm@unm.edu Wed Nov 22 20:22:00 2000 From: fssturm@unm.edu (Fred Sturm) Date: Wed Nov 22 13:22 MST 2000 Subject: Harpsichord string breakage Interesting. I've never had a harpsichord string break there. Is it the tuning pin closest to the nut (the bridge glued on the pinblock, closest to the tuning pins)? I'm thinking you are creating too much bearing (coiling the wire too far down the tuning pin, making for a steep angle downward from nut to where the string leaves the pin). That would create even more of an angle from the front tuning pin. Definitely brass is fussier than steel, not very forgiving about excess bends anywhere. And tends to be strung at closer to breaking point than the steel strings, exacerbating the problem. It really doesn't take that much of a downward angle to create good seating on the nut. I try to minimize the angle, especially with the brass strings. If a problem (generally a buzz) arises, it is easy enough to loosen tension, press downward on the string (usually with a finger), and get the coils to go downward a sufficient amount. Taking care that when brought to tension that last bit of coil isn't crossing the next one. Of course it could be the wire, but doesn't seem that likely, given the date you mention. Unlikely, but not impossible, to be a scaling problem, given it isn't the top strings of that gauge. But I'll leave that question to those who have the formulae and like to crunch numbers. Good luck, Fred Sturm Avery Todd wrote: > > Newton, > > In spite of what I said in a previous post, I just took a > closer look and it seems like they're breaking at the upper > bridge pin instead of the tuning pin. Sorry about the > misinformation. > > Avery > > >_Where_ are the strings breaking? That is likely to tell us > >something. > > > > Newton From Ted_Sambell@BanffCentre.AB.CA Wed Nov 22 22:44:00 2000 From: Ted_Sambell@BanffCentre.AB.CA (Sambell, Ted) Date: Wed Nov 22 15:44 MST 2000 Subject: THUD Back in the early 1970's (when Steinway was at a low ebb) I was the technician at the University of Western Ontario London, Ontario, which was undergoing rapid expansion and had ordered a number of new pianos, including several Steinways, all of which arrived in atrocious condition, plunging me into an enormous amount of work and many emergency calls. One came from one of the piano professors who said the piano was 'drumming'. Fortunately, it proved to be a very simple problem; the screws in the diagonal bar (it was a 'B') had not been tightened down! As the piano did not appear to be suffering from this lack, other than the noise, it did lead me to wonder if the bar really does anything at all, except to get in the way of damper installation.It might be appropiate to check this out too. Ted Sambell -----Original Message----- From: John D. Chapman [mailto:chapmajd@wfu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 7:35 AM To: caut@ptg.org Subject: Re: THUD Horace, Roger, Steve, Thank you for the fascinating suggestions. It will be next week before I see C&A 141 again and am anxious to try these approaches. In the meantime can you think of anything else which might apply? John Chapman RPT Wake Forest University Winston-Salem NC From fssturm@unm.edu Wed Nov 22 23:03:00 2000 From: fssturm@unm.edu (Fred Sturm) Date: Wed Nov 22 16:03 MST 2000 Subject: Harpsichord string breakage Oops! Forgot we were talking four foot, not one of the eight foots. And generally the four foot bridge is short enough that even if you manage to angle the wire all the way to the pinblock, it shouldn't be that extreme an angle. Still, if it is breaking at the nut pin, that is likely where there is too sharp an angle, thus creating a weak point. Fred Sturm Fred Sturm wrote: > > Interesting. I've never had a harpsichord string break there. Is it the > tuning pin closest to the nut (the bridge glued on the pinblock, closest > to the tuning pins)? From pianocraft@sprintmail.com Thu Nov 23 00:35:00 2000 From: pianocraft@sprintmail.com (john hartman) Date: Wed Nov 22 17:35 MST 2000 Subject: THUD John, Check to see if any bridge pins are touching the plate bars. Also check to see if there is enough clearance between the nose bolts and the holes in the sound board. I have found more than one Steinway with a nose bolt touching the sound board. If you find this problem cut the end off of a coping saw blade and saw around the nose bolt from under the piano. In addition see if the nose bolts are properly seated and the nuts are tight. Same for the bell bolt and nut. Good luck, John Hartman "John D. Chapman" wrote: > Horace, Roger, Steve, > Thank you for the fascinating suggestions. It will be next week > before I see C&A 141 again and am anxious to try these approaches. In the > meantime can you think of anything else which might apply? > John Chapman RPT > Wake Forest University > Winston-Salem NC From harvey@greenwood.net Thu Nov 23 01:57:00 2000 From: harvey@greenwood.net (harvey) Date: Wed Nov 22 18:57 MST 2000 Subject: THUD John, please report back if any of these suggestions work in your situation. I'm saving all replies on this as a double-check list, because I'm having (what I believe to be) the same phenomenon on a one year old 'B'. In my case, the complaint is that those same notes don't "sound like" the others on hard blows. However, like Horace implied, I have eliminated voicing as a possibility. In exploring other areas, when I rap on the plate, it generates what I consider excessive plate noise of the sub-sonic drone kind. Then, I'm from the old school who feels that plates should be acoustically inert! Besides, if it's a matter of "self-contained" plate resonance, I don't know how to fix that. I have noticed the "tuned" phenomenon more with V-formed plates than traditional methods, regardless of manufacturer. Jim Harvey, RPT [bell metal indeed] >From: John D. Chapman [mailto:chapmajd@wfu.edu] >Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 7:35 AM >To: caut@ptg.org >Subject: Re: THUD > > >Horace, Roger, Steve, > Thank you for the fascinating suggestions. It will be next week >before I see C&A 141 again and am anxious to try these approaches. In the >meantime can you think of anything else which might apply? >John Chapman RPT >Wake Forest University >Winston-Salem NC From thepianoarts@home.com Thu Nov 23 02:00:00 2000 From: thepianoarts@home.com (thepianoarts) Date: Wed Nov 22 19:00 MST 2000 Subject: Metric / American Standard gauges Help! I am new to CAUT. I service many small venues, Junior colleges and perforaming arts centers in the Dallas Texas area. I don't normally restring. But, just for fun... I am restringing an old english piano, and I am 'trying' to order some 'PureSound' wire. Does anyone on the list have a conversion chart, or info to translate American Standard wire gauge numbers, or thousandths of an inch, into metric or metric gauge sizes? This piano calls for #12 through # 20 wire, with 1/2 sizes. Are the gauge numbers (comparing metric to America Standard) close? By the way, Juan Mas Cabre with PureSound, is a great addition to the restoration and music world. He is the author of the recent articles on wire for older pianos, in the Journal, and the main squeez at PureSound. (www.puresound-wire.com) Thanks in advance for your help. P.S. If you are a tech in the Dallas Texas area and want to try some of this wire, please let me know. Dan Reed Dallas From baldyam@sk.sympatico.ca Thu Nov 23 02:31:00 2000 From: baldyam@sk.sympatico.ca (Roger Jolly) Date: Wed Nov 22 19:31 MST 2000 Subject: Metric / American Standard gauges Hi Dan, The metric sizes are .0005" thinner than the imperial counterpart. 5lbs tension per string difference on an average high tension scale piano. Roger At 07:58 PM 22/11/00 -0500, you wrote: >Help! > >I am new to CAUT. I service many small venues, Junior colleges and >perforaming arts centers in the Dallas Texas area. I don't normally >restring. But, just for fun... > I am restringing an old english piano, and I am 'trying' to order some >'PureSound' wire. Does anyone on the list have a conversion chart, or info >to translate American Standard wire gauge numbers, or thousandths of an >inch, into metric or metric gauge sizes? This piano calls for #12 through ># 20 wire, with 1/2 sizes. Are the gauge numbers (comparing metric to >America Standard) close? > By the way, Juan Mas Cabre with PureSound, is a great addition to the >restoration and music world. He is the author of the recent articles on wire >for older pianos, in the Journal, and the main squeez at PureSound. >(www.puresound-wire.com) >Thanks in advance for your help. > >P.S. If you are a tech in the Dallas Texas area and want to try some of this >wire, please let me know. >Dan Reed >Dallas > Roger Jolly Saskatoon, Canada. 306-665-0213 Fax 652-0505 From dgurnee@humboldt1.com Thu Nov 23 07:08:00 2000 From: dgurnee@humboldt1.com (Daniel Gurnee) Date: Thu Nov 23 00:08 MST 2000 Subject: THUD on 11/21/00 5:02 PM, John D. Chapman at chapmajd@wfu.edu wrote: > Just tuned a S&S D brought in by the dealership for a Brahms concerto with > the symphony. Notes 50,51,52,&53 (last four in agraff section, just above > A440) had an unpleasant pronounced THUD when played above forte. This is > the same THUD which is always there lurking behind piano tone but usually > not dominating it. I checked keyframe front, back, and glides, checked > for loose hammers, held up dampers heads by hand and played the note to > see if it was a damper problem and it was not, checked damper upstop > rail, seated strings on bridge, reshaped hammers to that nice S&S pointy > shape, tried needling, tried juicing, switched a couple of hammers from a > few notes below where the sound is good just to see if it was a hammer > problem and it was not. What have I missed? The one thing I didn't do > which might have help diagnose the problem was to pull the action in and > out to change the strike point. What do you think? > > John D. Chapman RPT > Wake Forest University > Winston-Salem NC > > John D. Chapman, The "bell" at the treble end under the case can affect the tone in more than the immediate area. It must not be used to adjust bearing, but taken up unloose to snug. Many excellent suggeations. Daniel Gurnee, RPT From nhunt@jagat.com Thu Nov 23 13:16:00 2000 From: nhunt@jagat.com (Newton Hunt) Date: Thu Nov 23 06:16 MST 2000 Subject: Metric / American Standard gauges This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ---------------------- multipart/mixed attachment wire conversion table. Newton ---------------------- multipart/mixed attachment A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Wire.wk1 Type: application/vnd.lotus-1-2-3 Size: 10840 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.ptg.org/pipermail/caut/attachments/f3/e1/76/11/Wire.wk1 ---------------------- multipart/mixed attachment-- From chapmajd@wfu.edu Thu Nov 23 15:24:00 2000 From: chapmajd@wfu.edu (John D. Chapman) Date: Thu Nov 23 08:24 MST 2000 Subject: THUD Daniel, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "taken up unloose to snug." John "The "bell" at the treble end under the case can affect the tone in more than the immediate area. It must not be used to adjust bearing, but taken up unloose to snug." Daniel Gurnee, RPT " From thepianoarts@home.com Thu Nov 23 17:06:00 2000 From: thepianoarts@home.com (thepianoarts) Date: Thu Nov 23 10:06 MST 2000 Subject: Metric / American Standard gauges Newton, The attachment won't open. I am using MS WORD on a recent Mac. Any suggestions? Giving thanks, Dan Reed From nhunt@jagat.com Thu Nov 23 18:59:00 2000 From: nhunt@jagat.com (Newton Hunt) Date: Thu Nov 23 11:59 MST 2000 Subject: Metric / American Standard gauges Dan, that is a Lotus 123 spreadsheet file. MS Excel will open it. Word doesn't understand numbers. Regards to family and happy Thanksgiving. Newton From dgurnee@humboldt1.com Thu Nov 23 22:30:00 2000 From: dgurnee@humboldt1.com (Daniel Gurnee) Date: Thu Nov 23 15:30 MST 2000 Subject: THUD on 11/23/00 7:22 AM, John D. Chapman at chapmajd@wfu.edu wrote: > Daniel, > I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "taken up unloose to snug." > John > > "The "bell" at the treble end under the case can affect the tone in more > than > the immediate area. It must not be used to adjust bearing, but taken up > unloose to snug." > > Daniel Gurnee, RPT " > > John, The adjustment bolt is a simple machine screw with the nut un the under side of the "bell" and is not to be loose but on the other hand, is not used to adjust plate bearing. If the nut is finger tight, it may be enough. I have never found it from the factory to be tighter than a turn past finger tight. Dan. From leifo@image.dk Thu Nov 23 23:05:00 2000 From: leifo@image.dk (Leif Olsen) Date: Thu Nov 23 16:05 MST 2000 Subject: M$ Word Hej Horace On 20-Nov-00, Horace Greeley wrote: , I am most tempted to send it out just in the body of an email. On www and to paper I use an old Amiga, because it has booted before your PC-monitor has ever warmed up. One of the nice things about this email-thing is the very small resources it needs, so I think it's a crime to use HTML-codes with it and a even bigger crime to attach a Word document, which is about four times as big as a normal email or (attached) ascii-text :-( Regards -- Pianoshop Leif Olsen D.P.I.F. Denmark From harvey@greenwood.net Thu Nov 23 23:10:00 2000 From: harvey@greenwood.net (harvey) Date: Thu Nov 23 16:10 MST 2000 Subject: THUD ---------------------- multipart/mixed attachment Dan, thanks for explaining the former message. I too didn't understand the phrasing on the first pass. Regarding finger tight, I recently acquired a new client because they found "spare parts" on the floor below their S&S 'B'. No hints are required here I think. Prior to that, they had noticed an intermittent buzz -- one that disappeared following the discovery of the extra parts. The husband of the player is into everything: farm equipment, sports cars, welding, woodworking... the list goes on. It was she who persuaded him that, just this once, it might be prudent to call a piano technician instead of breaking out the wrenches. Sorry, I thought that story was going somewhere when I started typing! Thanks for the clarification anyway. Jim Harvey At 02:29 PM 11/23/00 -0800, you wrote: >John, > >The adjustment bolt is a simple machine screw with the nut un the under side >of the "bell" and is not to be loose but on the other hand, is not used to >adjust plate bearing. If the nut is finger tight, it may be enough. I have >never found it from the factory to be tighter than a turn past finger tight. > >Dan. ---------------------- multipart/mixed attachment --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.215 / Virus Database: 101 - Release Date: 11/16/00 ---------------------- multipart/mixed attachment-- From rontorrella@yahoo.com Fri Nov 24 00:04:00 2000 From: rontorrella@yahoo.com (Ron Torrella) Date: Thu Nov 23 17:04 MST 2000 Subject: THUD **I originally sent this yesterday morning, but the server must've eaten it.... Check the action rails--especially the joint adjacent to 50-53 on the hammer flange rail. Also, check those particular wippens. Is there sufficient felt at the frnt of the window to keep the jack from slamming into the rep lever? Have you been able to localize the sound of the thud? Describe that..... Ron Torrella, RPT "John D. Chapman" wrote: > Just tuned a S&S D brought in by the dealership for a Brahms concerto with > the symphony. Notes 50,51,52,&53 (last four in agraff section, just above > A440) had an unpleasant pronounced THUD when played above forte. This is > the same THUD which is always there lurking behind piano tone but usually > not dominating it. I checked keyframe front, back, and glides, checked > for loose hammers, held up dampers heads by hand and played the note to > see if it was a damper problem and it was not, checked damper upstop > rail, seated strings on bridge, reshaped hammers to that nice S&S pointy > shape, tried needling, tried juicing, switched a couple of hammers from a > few notes below where the sound is good just to see if it was a hammer > problem and it was not. What have I missed? The one thing I didn't do > which might have help diagnose the problem was to pull the action in and > out to change the strike point. What do you think? > > John D. Chapman RPT > Wake Forest University > Winston-Salem NC __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From chapmajd@wfu.edu Fri Nov 24 00:54:00 2000 From: chapmajd@wfu.edu (John D. Chapman) Date: Thu Nov 23 17:54 MST 2000 Subject: THUD Ron, I did check the rep window felt, but will double check the action rails. The thud is a percussive slap heard to some extent behind all piano attack, but very pronounced in these four notes above a forte blow. I might also say that in addition to the thud being more pronounced for notes 50-53, the rest of the piano's tone for those four notes is weaker. John On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, Ron Torrella wrote: > **I originally sent this yesterday morning, but the server must've eaten > it.... > > Check the action rails--especially the joint adjacent to 50-53 on the > hammer > flange rail. Also, check those particular wippens. Is there sufficient > felt at > the frnt of the window to keep the jack from slamming into the rep > lever? > > Have you been able to localize the sound of the thud? Describe that..... > > Ron Torrella, RPT > "John D. Chapman" wrote: > > > Just tuned a S&S D brought in by the dealership for a Brahms concerto with > > the symphony. Notes 50,51,52,&53 (last four in agraff section, just above > > A440) had an unpleasant pronounced THUD when played above forte. This is > > the same THUD which is always there lurking behind piano tone but usually > > not dominating it. I checked keyframe front, back, and glides, checked > > for loose hammers, held up dampers heads by hand and played the note to > > see if it was a damper problem and it was not, checked damper upstop > > rail, seated strings on bridge, reshaped hammers to that nice S&S pointy > > shape, tried needling, tried juicing, switched a couple of hammers from a > > few notes below where the sound is good just to see if it was a hammer > > problem and it was not. What have I missed? The one thing I didn't do > > which might have help diagnose the problem was to pull the action in and > > out to change the strike point. What do you think? > > > > John D. Chapman RPT > > Wake Forest University > > Winston-Salem NC > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com > > From cramer@BrandonU.CA Fri Nov 24 01:35:00 2000 From: cramer@BrandonU.CA (Mark Cramer) Date: Thu Nov 23 18:35 MST 2000 Subject: key-frame return spring Thanks everyone for your suggestions, Mark Cramer, Brandon University From rontorrella@yahoo.com Fri Nov 24 01:45:00 2000 From: rontorrella@yahoo.com (Ron Torrella) Date: Thu Nov 23 18:45 MST 2000 Subject: THUD Check the action rails--especially the joint adjacent to 50-53 on the hammer flange rail. Also, check those particular wippens. Is there sufficient felt at the frnt of the window to keep the jack from slamming into the rep lever? Have you been able to localize the sound of the thud? Describe that..... Ron Torrella, RPT "John D. Chapman" wrote: > Just tuned a S&S D brought in by the dealership for a Brahms concerto with > the symphony. Notes 50,51,52,&53 (last four in agraff section, just above > A440) had an unpleasant pronounced THUD when played above forte. This is > the same THUD which is always there lurking behind piano tone but usually > not dominating it. I checked keyframe front, back, and glides, checked > for loose hammers, held up dampers heads by hand and played the note to > see if it was a damper problem and it was not, checked damper upstop > rail, seated strings on bridge, reshaped hammers to that nice S&S pointy > shape, tried needling, tried juicing, switched a couple of hammers from a > few notes below where the sound is good just to see if it was a hammer > problem and it was not. What have I missed? The one thing I didn't do > which might have help diagnose the problem was to pull the action in and > out to change the strike point. What do you think? > > John D. Chapman RPT > Wake Forest University > Winston-Salem NC _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From cramer@BrandonU.CA Fri Nov 24 01:50:00 2000 From: cramer@BrandonU.CA (Mark Cramer) Date: Thu Nov 23 18:50 MST 2000 Subject: S&S: key-frame return spring Hi Dan, I had polished the spring after sanding the edges with a fine paper to de-burr. It was the spring groaning at the point when the frame had almost reached end of travel, and again upon release of the pedal. Forgot to mention I had put DAG on both the spring and key-frame, its the polished graphite against polished graphite (I believe) made things worse. Mark -----Original Message----- From: owner-caut@ptg.org [mailto:owner-caut@ptg.org]On Behalf Of thepianoarts Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 8:44 PM To: caut@ptg.org Subject: Re: S&S: key-frame return spring Hi Mark, I am sure you have located the source correctly, but after much trial and error, mostly error, I now treat the back verticle edge of the key frame where it could touch the dags, etc. Sanding would work too. It is a tough one (noise) to trace, but common. Just courious... Was the spring singing, or the wood frame resonating? (How about polishing the spring?) Dan Reed Dallas From remoody@midstatesd.net Fri Nov 24 02:47:00 2000 From: remoody@midstatesd.net (Richard Moody) Date: Thu Nov 23 19:47 MST 2000 Subject: Harpsichord string breakage >I'll leave that > question to those who have the formulae and like to crunch numbers. > Good luck, > Fred Sturm > I have a tension formula in a spread sheet. But I need the density in grams per cu centimeter, or grains per inch of the wire. ---Richard Moody From k-eschete@nwu.edu Fri Nov 24 20:00:00 2000 From: k-eschete@nwu.edu (Kenneth P. Eschete) Date: Fri Nov 24 13:00 MST 2000 Subject: Metric / American Standard gauges Dan, The string sizes marked on English painos (1840 - 1900) are generally close enough to standard wire guage. If the piano predates iron framing, you better tell me more about the piano. Ken Eschete sizesAt 07:58 PM 11/22/00 -0500, you wrote: >Help! > >I am new to CAUT. I service many small venues, Junior colleges and >perforaming arts centers in the Dallas Texas area. I don't normally >restring. But, just for fun... > I am restringing an old english piano, and I am 'trying' to order some >'PureSound' wire. Does anyone on the list have a conversion chart, or info >to translate American Standard wire gauge numbers, or thousandths of an >inch, into metric or metric gauge sizes? This piano calls for #12 through ># 20 wire, with 1/2 sizes. Are the gauge numbers (comparing metric to >America Standard) close? > By the way, Juan Mas Cabre with PureSound, is a great addition to the >restoration and music world. He is the author of the recent articles on wire >for older pianos, in the Journal, and the main squeez at PureSound. >(www.puresound-wire.com) >Thanks in advance for your help. > >P.S. If you are a tech in the Dallas Texas area and want to try some of this >wire, please let me know. >Dan Reed >Dallas > Kenneth P. Eschete Director of Keyboard Maintenance Interim-Director Concert Activities Northwestern University, Evanston, IL. USA k-eschete@nwu.edu From thepianoarts@home.com Fri Nov 24 22:14:00 2000 From: thepianoarts@home.com (thepianoarts) Date: Fri Nov 24 15:14 MST 2000 Subject: Metric / American Standard gauges Kenneth, I did not find string or gauge size on the frame or bridges etc, I miced the wire. Do you know how American Standard gauges relate to Metric? Roger posted that Mertic is .0005 thinner than Imperial. O.K.! Thats 5 ten thousandths. Right? And Imperial relates to American Standard? I could measure the wire witha Metric mic, and end my confusion. FYI, this instrument is an iron frame straight strung birdcage vertical, whose owner could not be talked out of the restringing. The piano is pretty much the garden varaity.) I am guessing it is about 100+ years old, and I am trying to order the correct wire sizes from PureSound. Thanks for your post. Dan Reed Dallas, Texas From baldyam@sk.sympatico.ca Sat Nov 25 01:40:00 2000 From: baldyam@sk.sympatico.ca (Roger Jolly) Date: Fri Nov 24 18:40 MST 2000 Subject: Metric / American Standard gauges >the wire. Do you know how American Standard gauges relate to Metric? Roger >posted that Mertic is .0005 thinner than Imperial. O.K.! Thats 5 ten >thousandths. Right? And Imperial relates to American Standard? I could >measure the wire witha Metric mic, and end my confusion. Hi Dan, Get your self a digital caliper, you will love it, press the button for mm. I no longer have to squint, and add 25,50 or 75, to some thing that I have difficulty reading. Hell I only have 10 fingers. It is a lot faster to use, and almost dummy proof. I think BSWG and AS are the same. Today I checked the complete set of Roslau and Mapes wire today, the german wire was .0005" thinner on each gauge. Roger Roger Jolly Saskatoon, Canada. 306-665-0213 Fax 652-0505 From birketts@wright.aps.uoguelph.ca Sat Nov 25 02:55:00 2000 From: birketts@wright.aps.uoguelph.ca (Stephen Birkett) Date: Fri Nov 24 19:55 MST 2000 Subject: Harpsichord string breakage Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 816 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.ptg.org/pipermail/caut/attachments/a3/15/bf/11/attachment.bin From k-eschete@nwu.edu Sun Nov 26 21:15:00 2000 From: k-eschete@nwu.edu (Kenneth P. Eschete) Date: Sun Nov 26 14:15 MST 2000 Subject: Metric / American Standard gauges Dan, To convert your string measurements to mm, multiply your mircometer readings by 25.4. I have restrung English uprights from this period and wonder if you have anticipated the problem with the pinblock. Loose tuning pins are pretty standard on these instruments and restringing with oversize pins does not always correct the problem. The pinblocks are solid wood and the cracks will just open wider when a larger pin is used. Then there's the problems with the nut, which is often made of wood that is cracked. Bringing up the string tension of a piano with this condition causes the nut pins to pull out and fly across the room like bullets. Then there's the action..... I really don't think you need to worry about what kind of wire you are using. It is unlikely to make any difference in the tone of a piano like this. Good luck, Ken Eschete >Kenneth, > > I did not find string or gauge size on the frame or bridges etc, I miced >the wire. Do you know how American Standard gauges relate to Metric? Roger >posted that Mertic is .0005 thinner than Imperial. O.K.! Thats 5 ten >thousandths. Right? And Imperial relates to American Standard? I could >measure the wire witha Metric mic, and end my confusion. > FYI, this instrument is an iron frame straight strung birdcage >vertical, whose owner could not be talked out of the restringing. The piano >is pretty much the garden varaity.) I am guessing it is about 100+ years >old, and I am trying to order the correct wire sizes from PureSound. Thanks >for your post. > >Dan Reed >Dallas, Texas > Kenneth P. Eschete Director of Keyboard Maintenance Interim-Director Concert Activities Northwestern University, Evanston, IL. USA k-eschete@nwu.edu From piano.tech@ns.sympatico.ca Sun Nov 26 21:38:00 2000 From: piano.tech@ns.sympatico.ca (John Ross) Date: Sun Nov 26 14:38 MST 2000 Subject: Metric / American Standard gauges ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth P. Eschete" To: Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 5:18 PM Subject: Re: Metric / American Standard gauges > Dan, Then there's the problems > with the nut, which is often made of wood that is cracked. Bringing up the > string tension of a piano with this condition causes the nut pins to pull > out and fly across the room like bullets. What is a nut pin? Then there's the action..... > I really don't think you need to worry about what kind of wire you are > using. It is unlikely to make any difference in the tone of a piano like this. Especially if it is a "Birdcage Action" > Good luck, > > Ken Eschete > >Kenneth, > > Regards, John M. Ross Windsor, Nova Scotia, Canada. P.S. How does a person put those little "Snips" in? I had to go to reply, and erase the unwanted stuff. I am sure the snip way would be easier. JR > From thepianoarts@home.com Mon Nov 27 02:49:00 2000 From: thepianoarts@home.com (thepianoarts) Date: Sun Nov 26 19:49 MST 2000 Subject: Restringing an 'Old English' birdcage(was metric/American Standard) Ken, Thanks for the conversion tip. I'll use it. The pinblock condition (feel) and relativly good tuning pin torque are encouraging. No visable cracks anywhere. As you suggest, this is very unusual. The action pinning, hammer & shank condition, bridge and 'nut' pinning, and soundboard, all look good. (The 'nut' is the bridge-like termination points south of the tuning pins, right?) The damper action works 'well'. The soundboard has some life in it yet. The action feel is quick and easy. Try as I might, I could not find any structural reason to refuse the job. I labored to talk the owner out of putting any money into the instrument, offering a variety of alternatives. The owner is aware of the limitations, via the damper action, and the relative tone quality differences, compared to a more modern instrument. Why restring with a more 'authentic' wire? Will it make a difference? Don't know. The theory I am working under is, that in using the 'more like the original' wire, that is, a little less stiff, that the musical result might reflect this difference. Is this wire a little more flexable, which might result in a tone which is not as aggressive, and with a slower decay, and a little better harmonic development?) I bought the "PureSound" article theory. Juan, one of the owners of PureSound, is a real enthusiest, and will make a great contribution to our craft, if he can get the distribution to the USA etc. worked out. If per chance I can get the wire in enough time to finish by Christmas, I'll let you know how it went. Thanks for your help. Dan Reed Dallas Chapter on 10/26/00 4:18 PM, Kenneth P. Eschete at k-eschete@nwu.edu wrote: > Dan, > To convert your string measurements to mm, multiply your mircometer > readings by 25.4. > I have restrung English uprights from this period and wonder if you have > anticipated the problem with the pinblock. Loose tuning pins are pretty > standard on these instruments and restringing with oversize pins does not > always correct the problem. The pinblocks are solid wood and the cracks > will just open wider when a larger pin is used. Then there's the problems > with the nut, which is often made of wood that is cracked. Bringing up the > string tension of a piano with this condition causes the nut pins to pull > out and fly across the room like bullets. Then there's the action..... > > I really don't think you need to worry about what kind of wire you are > using. It is unlikely to make any difference in the tone of a piano like > this. > Good luck, > > Ken Eschete > From atodd@UH.EDU Mon Nov 27 13:43:00 2000 From: atodd@UH.EDU (Avery Todd) Date: Mon Nov 27 06:43 MST 2000 Subject: Harpsichord string breakage Stephen, Sorry I'm so late responding. I've been off since Wed. >> Yellow. Brass, I assume. >> >And what is the exact material of the wire that you are using? Rose brass? >Phosphor-bronze? Something else? That can make quite a difference. Sorry. I just don't know. It's wire, I assume, that came with the harpsichord from the maker when we bought it about a year ago. Avery >Stephen Birkett Fortepianos >Authentic Reproductions of 18th and 19th Century Pianos >464 Winchester Drive >Waterloo, Ontario >Canada N2T 1K5 >tel: 519-885-2228 >mailto: birketts@wright.aps.uoguelph.ca From atodd@UH.EDU Mon Nov 27 13:50:00 2000 From: atodd@UH.EDU (Avery Todd) Date: Mon Nov 27 06:50 MST 2000 Subject: Harpsichord string breakage Hi Stephen, >Assuming overall pitch of the instrument is 440 as you said, and that, >when you >say Bb is the problem note, you mean Bb in the A440 position... No, it's Bb in the A-415 position. That's where the maker's instruction sheet says to put it. Here's a direct quote: "List for replacement of strings and plectra, with keyboard in the middle (A=415) position." >so length is 315 mm, dia. >0.28 mm on Bb. It's pretty close to the max for Rose brass wire, probably >similar for >whatever else brass you might be using, except the disgusting phosphor >bronze wire >which is only suitable for plumbing repairs. Your problem string is >sitting at less >than a semitone to breaking, so any unusual mechanical stress might very >well be >causing your breakage, or even variation in wire strength. Try a size >smaller in that >section. There is more than an octave above that of the same size wire, so I wouldn't "think" a smaller size would be the cure. Right? Avery >Stephen > >Stephen Birkett Fortepianos >Authentic Reproductions of 18th and 19th Century Pianos >464 Winchester Drive >Waterloo, Ontario >Canada N2T 1K5 >tel: 519-885-2228 >mailto: birketts@wright.aps.uoguelph.ca From ed440@mindspring.com Mon Nov 27 15:24:00 2000 From: ed440@mindspring.com (Ed Sutton) Date: Mon Nov 27 08:24 MST 2000 Subject: Harpsichord string breakage Avery- Have you checked the nut and pin to be sure there isn't a burr that is abrading the string, or a groove that is binding it? Could there be a repair to that pin which has left a drop of glue on the surface. (Maybe the maker miss drilled for the pin, then plugged the nut and redrilled.) Maybe you could try putting a tiny drop of ProLube on the bearing point? Also make sure that the 8' hasn't drifted sharp, so that you're tuning the 4' past breaking point. Ed From birketts@wright.aps.uoguelph.ca Mon Nov 27 16:32:00 2000 From: birketts@wright.aps.uoguelph.ca (Stephen Birkett) Date: Mon Nov 27 09:32 MST 2000 Subject: Harpsichord string breakage Avery wrote: > No, it's Bb in the A-415 position. That's where the maker's instruction > sheet says to put it. Here's a direct quote: "List for replacement of > strings and plectra, with keyboard in the middle (A=415) position." > In that case, design scaling is reasonable (e.g. > 2 s.t. to breaking for Rose yellow brass), so your problem lies in either a mechanical reason (as several have already offered suggestions for something which is causing a localized point of high stress) or the wire you have is bad. Try restringing with the remaining piece on a neighbouring note. If it breaks you're no worse off than if you had put it on the problem note, since it would have broken there anyway. You can conclude the problem lies with bad wire and order some more. If it doesn't break on the neighbouring note you can conclude the problem is localized stress and hunt out the cause. Stephen Stephen Birkett Fortepianos Authentic Reproductions of 18th and 19th Century Pianos 464 Winchester Drive Waterloo, Ontario Canada N2T 1K5 tel: 519-885-2228 mailto: birketts@wright.aps.uoguelph.ca From birketts@wright.aps.uoguelph.ca Mon Nov 27 16:51:00 2000 From: birketts@wright.aps.uoguelph.ca (Stephen Birkett) Date: Mon Nov 27 09:51 MST 2000 Subject: Restringing an 'Old English' birdcage(was metric/AmericanStandard) Dan wrote: > Why restring with a more 'authentic' wire? Will it make a difference? > Don't know. The theory I am working under is, that in using the 'more like > the original' wire, that is, a little less stiff, that the musical result > might reflect this difference. Is this wire a little more flexable, which > might result in a tone which is not as aggressive, and with a slower decay, > and a little better harmonic development?) > Can't comment on the birdcage piano, but, for curiosity, what is the date? Also can't speculate on the potential for improving one of those beasties by using different wire, but how will you assess the results? Whether there is any tangible benefit will no doubt be relevant to whether the customer should be charged for the restringing...unless, of course, you have been asked to re-string anyway and are just substituting PureSound wire for modern, in which case your experiment will be interesting. I can comment on wire as it pertains to instruments that pre-date Juan's area of interest. He is attempting to produce a modern alloy product which simulates better the characteristics of pre-twentieth century steel wire ca 1840 to ca 1900, which is considerably different from modern music wire. His approach is not to duplicate the original, rather simulate with a product that is readily available now. Flexibility is an important property of old wire, probably the most critical factor in the difference between pre-1830 iron wire and anything available now (including Rose iron). In my view flexibility translates into higher internal friction, and quicker decay for high harmonics, hence a less metallic sound, i.e. a tonal effect - but that is still a speculative conclusion and part of an ongoing research project to study and reproduce historical iron music wire. This will not translate into an effect on overall sustain, though, since that is governed primarily by soundboard, downbearing and other such mechanical/acoustic design factors that have nothing to do with the vibrations on the wire. If we apply this conclusion to PureSound wire vs modern steel, to some extent, then, you might expect a less aggressive tonal quality, somewhat more mellow, but I doubt any observable effect on overall decay characteristics. Please report on your observations. Stephen Stephen Birkett Fortepianos Authentic Reproductions of 18th and 19th Century Pianos 464 Winchester Drive Waterloo, Ontario Canada N2T 1K5 tel: 519-885-2228 mailto: birketts@wright.aps.uoguelph.ca From fssturm@unm.edu Tue Nov 28 21:20:00 2000 From: fssturm@unm.edu (Fred Sturm) Date: Tue Nov 28 14:20 MST 2000 Subject: Harpsichord string breakage Stephen, Can you expound just a bit about phosphor bronze? What don't you like about it? Sound? Something else? If one were to change existing phosphor bronz for something else, what would you recommend (preferably with the same diameters, to avoid a lot of figuring)? Would "spring brass" work okay? What would be the expected difference in sound? Mostly just curious, though I may have a harpsichord or two under my sporadic care that has such wire. Fred Sturm University of New Mexico Stephen Birkett wrote: > whatever else brass you might be using, except the disgusting phosphor bronze wire > which is only suitable for plumbing repairs. > > Stephen > > Stephen Birkett Fortepianos > Authentic Reproductions of 18th and 19th Century Pianos > 464 Winchester Drive > Waterloo, Ontario > Canada N2T 1K5 > tel: 519-885-2228 > mailto: birketts@wright.aps.uoguelph.ca From fssturm@unm.edu Tue Nov 28 21:23:00 2000 From: fssturm@unm.edu (Fred Sturm) Date: Tue Nov 28 14:23 MST 2000 Subject: Harpsichord string breakage Just a quick opinion that it would be very strange for bad wire to break at the nut, especially two new pieces installed in the same place. Much more likely at the tuning pin, where stress is highest. I'd look carefully at the nut, the angle the string leaves the nut for the tuning pin, and general stringing technique. I might also call the maker at this point, and ask if others have had your problem. Fred Sturm Stephen Birkett wrote: > > > In that case, design scaling is reasonable (e.g. > 2 s.t. to breaking for Rose > yellow brass), so your problem lies in either a mechanical reason (as several > have already offered suggestions for something which is causing a localized > point of high stress) or the wire you have is bad. > > Stephen > > Stephen Birkett Fortepianos > Authentic Reproductions of 18th and 19th Century Pianos > 464 Winchester Drive > Waterloo, Ontario > Canada N2T 1K5 > tel: 519-885-2228 > mailto: birketts@wright.aps.uoguelph.ca From rkloomis@shaysnet.com Wed Nov 29 01:11:00 2000 From: rkloomis@shaysnet.com (Rob & Karen Loomis) Date: Tue Nov 28 18:11 MST 2000 Subject: Metric / American Standard gauges > > Get your self a digital caliper, you will love it, press the > button for mm. > I no longer have to squint, and add 25,50 or 75, to some thing that I have > difficulty reading. Hell I only have 10 fingers. > It is a lot faster to use, and almost dummy proof. > I couldn't agree more! This was my best new tool of the year. Under $50 from Lee Valley Tools and like is much better. Also the zeroing feature opens many possibilities. Rob Loomis From nhunt@jagat.com Wed Nov 29 02:16:00 2000 From: nhunt@jagat.com (Newton Hunt) Date: Tue Nov 28 19:16 MST 2000 Subject: Metric / American Standard gauges These are indeed wonderful tools but they are not as accurate as a good micrometer by more than half. A good mike can be read to .0001 and the calipers to .0005 +/- .001! Know this and it is still one of my favorite HowBigs. Newton Rob & Karen Loomis wrote: > > > > > Get your self a digital caliper, you will love it, press the > > button for mm. > > I no longer have to squint, and add 25,50 or 75, to some thing that I have > > difficulty reading. Hell I only have 10 fingers. > > It is a lot faster to use, and almost dummy proof. > > > > I couldn't agree more! This was my best new tool of the year. Under $50 from > Lee Valley Tools and like is much better. Also the zeroing feature opens many > possibilities. > > Rob Loomis From atodd@UH.EDU Thu Nov 30 14:42:00 2000 From: atodd@UH.EDU (Avery Todd) Date: Thu Nov 30 07:42 MST 2000 Subject: Metric / American Standard gauges Newton, Is there any other program which can open this? I don't have Lotus. Avery >wire conversion table. > > Newton > >Content-type: application/vnd.lotus-1-2-3; name="Wire.wk1" >Content-disposition: inline; filename="Wire.wk1" > >Attachment converted: Hard Disk:Wire.wk1 (????/----) (0001AE7A) From hoffsoco@martin.luther.edu Thu Nov 30 16:01:00 2000 From: hoffsoco@martin.luther.edu (Conrad Hoffsommer) Date: Thu Nov 30 09:01 MST 2000 Subject: Metric / American Standard gauges At 09:40 11/30/2000 -0500, you wrote: >Newton, > > Is there any other program which can open this? I >don't have Lotus. > >Avery Quattro will both open it and convert it to local format. I'm sure other platforms will do the same. Conrad Conrad Hoffsommer - Music Technician -mailto:hoffsoco@luther.edu Luther College, 700 College Drive, Decorah, Iowa 52101-1045 Voice-(319)-387-1204 // Fax (319)-387-1076(Dept.office) Education is the best defense against the media. From nhunt@jagat.com Thu Nov 30 19:35:00 2000 From: nhunt@jagat.com (Newton Hunt) Date: Thu Nov 30 12:35 MST 2000 Subject: A-440 Policy? Hi Guys, Thanks for your note and wishes. I will keep this site on hand for later use. I am doing well, healing quickly and should be on my feet in five months, a month earlier than earlier thought. Regards to you two and the COUT list as well. Newton Ward & Probst wrote: > > Hi Newton, > > I also use Duluth Trading Co. stuff- they manufacture > Bucket Boss and Duck > Wear. Website- > http://buy.duluthtrading.com/store/departments.asp > I use a Contractors Briefcase which holds basic tools, > computer, PTG > literature and invoices. Elizabeth uses the Gatemouth Jr. > containing SATIII, > tools and carries her paperwork in a portfolio. > Good stuff, wears better than the camera bags which I also > like. Hope you > are feeling well after your mishap. > > Best, > Dale > Dale Probst, RPT > Member, TEAM20001 > PTG Annual Convention > Reno, NV --July 11-15, 2000 > email: wardprobst@cst.net > (940)691-3682 voice > (940) 691-6843 fax > TEAM2001 website: http://www.ptg.org/conv.htm > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-caut@ptg.org [mailto:owner-caut@ptg.org]On > Behalf Of Newton > Hunt > Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 11:23 AM > To: caut@ptg.org > Subject: Re: A-440 Policy? > > Too late! > > I didn't see your post until now, having trouble getting > through all the posts. > > I just found an 'acceptable' case a a camera store, bought > it, dumped my tools into and left for Highland Park > walking. After about 1.25 miles, just three blocks from > home I was hit by a buy who used his bumper, still > attached > to the car and my brand new case had it's first tumble. > Seems unscratched but I haven't checked the SAT yet. I > just > got it back from Inventronics for new face, battery and > thorough checkout. Darn, darn, darn. Need to get it out > and see if it turns on. > > I will look at those cases the next time someone can get > me > to a Home Desperate. > > Take care and have a good weekend. > > Newton > > "Richard E. West" wrote: > > > > Newton Hunt wrote: > > > > > > > > I have to go out and see if I can find another soft > camera > > > case to hold my tools. The old one is just getting > too > > > ratty and has too many splits in the fabric. > > > > > > > Newton: > > > > If you're looking for the perfect soft case for your > tools go to your > > local hardware/Home Depot type store and look for > "BucketBoss" tool > > cases. They're the next best thing to sliced bread. For > years I had a > > custom case I made out of an old alto sax instrument > case. This year I > > switched to this soft tool kit. There are several > types. I bought > > three. One is big, with lots of slots for tools and a > smaller case > > attached that I use for voicing tools; it has a nice > shoulder strap and > > handle as well.. The other bag is a wide mouthed bag > that I use for > > tuning tools. The third "bag" is one that fits into a > milk crate as is > > good for large tools but also has several pockets for > various sized > > items. There are others that look like they'd handle a > computer plus > > tools. I've looked for the "perfect" tools cases for > years and these > > are it. Check it out. > > > > Richard West From nhunt@jagat.com Thu Nov 30 19:35:00 2000 From: nhunt@jagat.com (Newton Hunt) Date: Thu Nov 30 12:35 MST 2000 Subject: Metric / American Standard gauges This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ---------------------- multipart/mixed attachment Should have done this in the beginning, sorry folks. Newton ---------------------- multipart/mixed attachment American & Metric Wire Sizes Size Amer. Metric Metric Amer. Amer. Inches Inches metric size Steel Wire Copper wraps ===================================================================== 12 0.029 0.0285 0.725 0.737 11.7 12 0.029 39 0.0075 12.5 0.030 0.0295 0.750 0.762 12.2 12.5 0.030 38 0.0080 13 0.031 0.0305 0.775 0.787 12.8 13 0.031 37 0.0085 13.5 0.032 0.0315 0.800 0.813 13.2 13.5 0.032 36 0.0090 14 0.033 0.0325 0.825 0.838 13.7 14 0.033 35 0.0095 14.5 0.034 0.0335 0.850 0.864 14.2 14.4 0.034 34 0.0104 15 0.035 0.0344 0.875 0.889 14.7 15 0.035 33 0.0118 15.5 0.036 0.0354 0.900 0.914 15.2 15.5 0.036 32 0.0128 16 0.037 0.0364 0.925 0.940 15.7 16 0.037 31 0.0132 16.5 0.038 0.0374 0.950 0.965 16.2 16.5 0.038 30 0.0140 17 0.039 0.0384 0.975 0.991 16.7 17 0.039 29 0.0150 17.5 0.040 0.0394 1.000 1.016 17.2 17.5 0.040 28 0.0162 18 0.041 0.0404 1.025 1.041 17.7 18 0.041 27 0.0173 18.5 0.042 0.0413 1.050 1.063 18.2 18.5 0.042 26 0.0181 19 0.043 0.0423 1.075 1.092 18.7 19 0.043 25 0.0204 19.5 0.044 0.0433 1.100 1.118 19.2 19.5 0.044 24 0.0230 20 0.045 0.0443 1.125 1.143 19.7 20 0.045 23 0.0258 20.5 0.046 0.0453 1.150 20.5 0.046 22 0.0286 21 0.047 0.0463 1.175 1.194 20.6 21 0.047 21 0.0317 21.5 0.048 0.0472 1.200 21.5 0.048 20 0.0348 22 0.049 0.0482 1.225 1.245 21.6 22 0.049 19.5 0.0379 23 0.051 0.0512 1.300 1.295 23.1 22.5 0.050 19 0.0410 23.5 0.0531 1.350 23 0.051 18.5 0.0443 24 0.053 0.0551 1.400 1.346 25.0 23.5 0.053 18 0.0475 24.5 0.0571 1.450 24 0.055 17.5 0.0508 25 0.055 0.0591 1.500 1.397 27.0 24.5 0.057 17 0.0540 26 0.0630 1.600 25 0.059 16.5 0.0580 25.5 0.061 16 0.0625 26 0.063 15.5 0.0673 26.5 0.065 15 0.0720 27 0.067 14.5 0.0760 14 0.0800 ---------------------- multipart/mixed attachment-- From nhunt@jagat.com Thu Nov 30 20:07:00 2000 From: nhunt@jagat.com (Newton Hunt) Date: Thu Nov 30 13:07 MST 2000 Subject: A-440 Policy? Hi Guys, Thanks for your note and wishes. I will keep this site on hand for later use. I am doing well, healing quickly and should be on my feet in five months, a month earlier than earlier thought. Regards to you two and the COUT list as well. Newton Ward & Probst wrote: > > Hi Newton, > > I also use Duluth Trading Co. stuff- they manufacture > Bucket Boss and Duck > Wear. Website- > http://buy.duluthtrading.com/store/departments.asp > I use a Contractors Briefcase which holds basic tools, > computer, PTG > literature and invoices. Elizabeth uses the Gatemouth Jr. > containing SATIII, > tools and carries her paperwork in a portfolio. > Good stuff, wears better than the camera bags which I also > like. Hope you > are feeling well after your mishap. > > Best, > Dale > Dale Probst, RPT > Member, TEAM20001 > PTG Annual Convention > Reno, NV --July 11-15, 2000 > email: wardprobst@cst.net > (940)691-3682 voice > (940) 691-6843 fax > TEAM2001 website: http://www.ptg.org/conv.htm > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-caut@ptg.org [mailto:owner-caut@ptg.org]On > Behalf Of Newton > Hunt > Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 11:23 AM > To: caut@ptg.org > Subject: Re: A-440 Policy? > > Too late! > > I didn't see your post until now, having trouble getting > through all the posts. > > I just found an 'acceptable' case a a camera store, bought > it, dumped my tools into and left for Highland Park > walking. After about 1.25 miles, just three blocks from > home I was hit by a buy who used his bumper, still > attached > to the car and my brand new case had it's first tumble. > Seems unscratched but I haven't checked the SAT yet. I > just > got it back from Inventronics for new face, battery and > thorough checkout. Darn, darn, darn. Need to get it out > and see if it turns on. > > I will look at those cases the next time someone can get > me > to a Home Desperate. > > Take care and have a good weekend. > > Newton > > "Richard E. West" wrote: > > > > Newton Hunt wrote: > > > > > > > > I have to go out and see if I can find another soft > camera > > > case to hold my tools. The old one is just getting > too > > > ratty and has too many splits in the fabric. > > > > > > > Newton: > > > > If you're looking for the perfect soft case for your > tools go to your > > local hardware/Home Depot type store and look for > "BucketBoss" tool > > cases. They're the next best thing to sliced bread. For > years I had a > > custom case I made out of an old alto sax instrument > case. This year I > > switched to this soft tool kit. There are several > types. I bought > > three. One is big, with lots of slots for tools and a > smaller case > > attached that I use for voicing tools; it has a nice > shoulder strap and > > handle as well.. The other bag is a wide mouthed bag > that I use for > > tuning tools. The third "bag" is one that fits into a > milk crate as is > > good for large tools but also has several pockets for > various sized > > items. There are others that look like they'd haX-Mozilla-Status: 0009s > > tools. I've looked for the "perfect" tools cases for > years and these > > are it. Check it out. > > > > Richard West