From jminor@uiuc.edu Wed Jul 1 02:22:00 1998 From: jminor@uiuc.edu (John Minor) Date: Tue Jun 30 19:22 MDT 1998 Subject: Share room in Providence In-Reply-To: <199802161528.IAA08961@bridget.rudoff.com> I'm short one person for a double in Providence at the *NICE* hotel!! Non-smoking please. I have it reserved from Wed night thru Saturday night. John Minor jminor@uiuc.edu 217-333-3106 From michael.wathen@uc.edu Thu Jul 16 15:21:00 1998 From: michael.wathen@uc.edu (Michael J. Wathen) Date: Thu Jul 16 08:21 MDT 1998 Subject: Mapes phone Anybody know Mapes phone number off hand? Michael J. Wathen For Information about Wapin click on URL below michael.wathen@uc.edu http://www.wapin.com From kam544@earthlink.net Thu Jul 16 15:38:00 1998 From: kam544@earthlink.net (kam544@earthlink.net) Date: Thu Jul 16 08:38 MDT 1998 Subject: Mapes phone >Anybody know Mapes phone number off hand? >Michael J. Wathen >michael.wathen@uc.edu 617-926-9311 From atodd@UH.EDU Thu Jul 16 16:09:00 1998 From: atodd@UH.EDU (Avery Todd) Date: Thu Jul 16 09:09 MDT 1998 Subject: Mapes phone In-Reply-To: Michael & Keith, I've talked to them twice this week and I used this number: 423-543-3195. >>Anybody know Mapes phone number off hand? >>Michael J. Wathen >>michael.wathen@uc.edu >617-926-9311 From Gilreath@aol.com Fri Jul 17 13:05:00 1998 From: Gilreath@aol.com (Gilreath@aol.com) Date: Fri Jul 17 06:05 MDT 1998 Subject: Mapes phone In a message dated 98-07-16 10:21:58 EDT, you write: << Anybody know Mapes phone number off hand? Michael J. Wathen For Information about Wapin click on URL below michael.wathen@uc.edu http://www.wapin.com >> Michael, You can also email them at: wulf@preferred.com or check out their web site at: Mapes Piano String. As well as the phone numbers that other golks have mentioned. Allan Allan L. Gilreath, RPT Gilreath Piano & Organ Co. Calhoun, GA USA Gilreath@aol.com From Gilreath@aol.com Fri Jul 17 13:06:00 1998 From: Gilreath@aol.com (Gilreath@aol.com) Date: Fri Jul 17 06:06 MDT 1998 Subject: CAUT Committee Vince, Are you still the head of the CAUT committee? If so, give me a shout and if not, please advise me who is. Thanks, Allan Allan L. Gilreath, RPT Berry College Gilreath Piano & Organ Co. Calhoun, GA USA Gilreath@aol.com From atodd@UH.EDU Fri Jul 17 19:59:00 1998 From: atodd@UH.EDU (Avery Todd) Date: Fri Jul 17 12:59 MDT 1998 Subject: Mapes phone In-Reply-To: <459cf716.35af3dd6@aol.com> Allan & list, The Mapes web site listed below is incorrect. I got a not found message when I tried. The correct address is: http://www.mapeswire.com/ Avery >In a message dated 98-07-16 10:21:58 EDT, you write: > ><< Anybody know Mapes phone number off hand? > Michael J. Wathen For Information about Wapin click on URL below > michael.wathen@uc.edu http://www.wapin.com > >> >Michael, > >You can also email them at: wulf@preferred.com or check out their web site at: >Mapes Piano String. As well as >the phone numbers that other golks have mentioned. > >Allan > >Allan L. Gilreath, RPT >Gilreath Piano & Organ Co. >Calhoun, GA USA >Gilreath@aol.com From atodd@UH.EDU Fri Jul 17 21:05:00 1998 From: atodd@UH.EDU (Avery Todd) Date: Fri Jul 17 14:05 MDT 1998 Subject: Piano Manufacturers List List, In case these might be useful to someone, here are a couple more URL's I found while looking for the Mapes URL. This one for Cliff & Tony Geers, I didn't know about: http://home.fuse.net/CAGEERSPIANO/index.htm e-mail: tgeers@fuse.net At this site, each name, some not commonly found, is a link to that site. http://www.csjh.ttct.edu.tw/books/pianoinf.htm (I don't have a clue to what the symbols at the bottom mean. Does anyone else?) THE PIANO PAGE Baldwin Piano Company Bechstein Piano Co. Bluthner Piano Co. B–sendorfer Piano Co. Boston Piano Co. John Broadwood and Sons Ltd. Fachverband Deutsche Klavierindustrie -- German Piano Manufacturers Association Fazioli Pianoforti Feurich Pianofortefabrik German Piano Page Information about German Piano Manufacturers Grotrian-Steinweg Ibach Piano Co. Kawai Piano Company US Knabe Pianos Mason & Hamlin Pianos Mapes Piano Strings Petrof Piano Company (in Czech and English) Petrof Piano Company (From Dealership in Canada) PianoDisc Samick Piano Carl Sauter Pianofortemanufaktur Wilhelm Schimmel Pianofortebau Ed. Seiler Pianofortefabrik Steingraeber & S–hne Steinway & Sons (new URL: http://www.Steinway.com) Story & Clark Pianos Stuart Piano Co. Weber Piano Company Yamaha Piano Co. Young Chang Piano Company °i ßÞ„N±MŸÊ °E øšµ^¬¾*v°j °@ °@ ___________________________ Avery Todd, RPT Moores School of Music University of Houston Houston, TX 77204-4893 713-743-3226 atodd@uh.edu http://www.music.uh.edu/ From sbrady@u.washington.edu Fri Jul 24 17:13:00 1998 From: sbrady@u.washington.edu (S. Brady) Date: Fri Jul 24 10:13 MDT 1998 Subject: Letter to PTG Technical Editor (fwd) Dear list, Here's a letter I received recently from a technician seeking help on a Steinway noise. Any ideas? Thanks, Steve Steve Brady, RPT University of Washington Seattle, WA Steinway Grand "Fuzzy Buzz" I regularly service a Steinway B grand, approximately twenty years old. For many years it has had a problem with a number of notes in the mid treble. Despite my best attempts to locate the source, I have been unable to locate a faint, "fuzzy buzz" in this region 1-1/2 octaves above middle C. The instrument has spent its life in an "easy", moderate climate. Although it sounds like a soundboard related noise, I have set the strings on the bridges, experimented with the string/ capo d astro bar relationship, tried muting duplex string segments, checked action parts for loose joints and pinning, reshaped hammers, voiced, and listened under the piano and inside it while it was being played. I have cleaned underneath the plate, blown out the whole soundboard area with my vacuum, and checked for obvious soundboard and rib problems, even for dried glue remnants on the edges. I have always been able to find a remedy for other Steinway treble problems, but not this one. Has anyone out there had this experience and solved the problem? Are there any methods for "getting a fix" on the source of elusive soundboard noises? My customer is frustrated and so am I! Thanks for your help! -Tom Armstrong, RPT Monterey Bay Chapter, California _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From nhunt@jagat.com Fri Jul 24 17:26:00 1998 From: nhunt@jagat.com (Newton Hunt) Date: Fri Jul 24 10:26 MDT 1998 Subject: Letter to PTG Technical Editor (fwd) References: S. Brady wrote: > Dear list, > Here's a letter I received recently from a technician seeking > help on a Steinway noise. Any ideas? In order to eliminate duplex scaling as a source is to use some "Silly Putty" on BOTH ends of the duplex scale, behind the bridge and at the capo' bar. Silly Putty will conform to the strings and mute them entirely. It will not leave any residue nor effect the metal in any way. With the entire duplex system muted it is easier to locate the problem if it is not in the dulpex. If it is in the duplex it may well be but one or two unisons causing the problem so some experiments are in order. Further I would mute the undamped strings at the top end to eliminate them as a source. Good hunting. Newton nhunt@jagat.com From Michael.Jorgensen@cmich.edu Fri Jul 24 19:41:00 1998 From: Michael.Jorgensen@cmich.edu (Michael Jorgensen) Date: Fri Jul 24 12:41 MDT 1998 Subject: Letter to PTG Technical Editor (fwd) References: Hi Steve, This rings a bell. String Defect?? Sounds unlikely but--- I service a late 70s S$S B which had a raucous metallic buzz with a pulse of about six bps on two notes in the same area. It created difficulty tuning unisons and sounded "hollow" to the customer. The noise had a pitch equal to three octaves above the fundamental plus one note. Four RPTs, including myself, had searched high and wide with no luck. (everything mentioned your post). "harmonic in the board perhaps" or a "sypathetic buzz"?? but no solutions. Some tried to voice it out, mute out duplexes, and one relocated a hammer head. (like curing the cancer by killing the patient.) After a decade of defeat, I asked if anyone had ever replaced the strings on those unisons. None had, so we agreed to it as a "long shot" experiment. WOW!! The harmonic was still there but it no longer had any beats and lost much of its obnoxious metallic quality. The notes then sounded like the others which also contain that harmonic. --Just a thought-- -Mike Jorgensen > > Dear list, > Here's a letter I received recently from a technician seeking > help on a Steinway noise. Any ideas? > > Thanks, > Steve > > Steve Brady, RPT > University of Washington > Seattle, WA > > > > Steinway Grand "Fuzzy Buzz" > > I regularly service a Steinway B grand, approximately twenty years old. > For many years it has had a problem with a number of notes in the mid > treble. Despite my best attempts to locate the source, I have been > unable to locate a faint, "fuzzy buzz" in this region 1-1/2 octaves > above middle C. The instrument has spent its life in an "easy", > moderate climate. > > Although it sounds like a soundboard related noise, I have set the > strings on the bridges, experimented with the string/ capo d astro bar > relationship, tried muting duplex string segments, checked action parts > for loose joints and pinning, reshaped hammers, voiced, and listened > under the piano and inside it while it was being played. I have cleaned > underneath the plate, blown out the whole soundboard area with my vacuum, > and checked for obvious soundboard and rib problems, even for dried glue > remnants on the edges. I have always been able to find a remedy for > other Steinway treble problems, but not this one. > > Has anyone out there had this experience and solved the problem? Are > there any methods for "getting a fix" on the source of elusive soundboard > noises? My customer is frustrated and so am I! Thanks for your help! > > -Tom Armstrong, RPT > Monterey Bay Chapter, California > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From atodd@UH.EDU Fri Jul 24 20:41:00 1998 From: atodd@UH.EDU (Avery Todd) Date: Fri Jul 24 13:41 MDT 1998 Subject: Letter to PTG Technical Editor (fwd) Steve, I know you're going to get mostly "shots in the dark" :-) so here's another one. Along with Mike Jorgenson's suggestion about replacing strings, I'd also have him carefully check the the bridge pinning and *especially* the notching in that area. I had a buzzing problem once that was caused by the string laying on a little wood in the speaking length because of bad notching and/or bad placement of pins. That's one thing I didn't see mentioned in the litany of things checked, so..... it's worth a shot. Avery >Dear list, > Here's a letter I received recently from a technician seeking >help on a Steinway noise. Any ideas? > >Thanks, > Steve > >Steve Brady, RPT >University of Washington >Seattle, WA > > > >Steinway Grand "Fuzzy Buzz" > >I regularly service a Steinway B grand, approximately twenty years old. >For many years it has had a problem with a number of notes in the mid >treble. Despite my best attempts to locate the source, I have been >unable to locate a faint, "fuzzy buzz" in this region 1-1/2 octaves >above middle C. The instrument has spent its life in an "easy", >moderate climate. > >Although it sounds like a soundboard related noise, I have set the >strings on the bridges, experimented with the string/ capo d astro bar >relationship, tried muting duplex string segments, checked action parts >for loose joints and pinning, reshaped hammers, voiced, and listened >under the piano and inside it while it was being played. I have cleaned >underneath the plate, blown out the whole soundboard area with my vacuum, >and checked for obvious soundboard and rib problems, even for dried glue >remnants on the edges. I have always been able to find a remedy for >other Steinway treble problems, but not this one. > >Has anyone out there had this experience and solved the problem? Are >there any methods for "getting a fix" on the source of elusive soundboard >noises? My customer is frustrated and so am I! Thanks for your help! > >-Tom Armstrong, RPT >Monterey Bay Chapter, California >_____________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From ted@brevard.net Fri Jul 24 22:29:00 1998 From: ted@brevard.net (Ted Simmons) Date: Fri Jul 24 15:29 MDT 1998 Subject: Letter to PTG Technical Editor (fwd) References: Talk about timing! I just returned from a Steinway tuning and had warbles in the upper treble from the 5th octave to C7. Beyond that was O.K. I guess you could call it a "fuzzy buzz". Anyhow, I too am interested in any comments or suggestions toward explaining this phenomenon. Ted Simmons > Steinway Grand "Fuzzy Buzz" > > I regularly service a Steinway B grand, approximately twenty years old. > For many years it has had a problem with a number of notes in the mid > treble. Despite my best attempts to locate the source, I have been > unable to locate a faint, "fuzzy buzz" in this region 1-1/2 octaves > above middle C. The instrument has spent its life in an "easy", > moderate climate. > > Although it sounds like a soundboard related noise, I have set the > strings on the bridges, experimented with the string/ capo d astro bar > relationship, tried muting duplex string segments, checked action parts > for loose joints and pinning, reshaped hammers, voiced, and listened > under the piano and inside it while it was being played. I have cleaned > underneath the plate, blown out the whole soundboard area with my vacuum, > and checked for obvious soundboard and rib problems, even for dried glue > remnants on the edges. I have always been able to find a remedy for > other Steinway treble problems, but not this one. > > Has anyone out there had this experience and solved the problem? Are > there any methods for "getting a fix" on the source of elusive soundboard > noises? My customer is frustrated and so am I! Thanks for your help! > > -Tom Armstrong, RPT > Monterey Bay Chapter, California > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From jim_shari@ruralnet1.com Sat Jul 25 00:44:00 1998 From: jim_shari@ruralnet1.com (jim_shari@ruralnet1.com) Date: Fri Jul 24 17:44 MDT 1998 Subject: Letter to PTG Technical Editor (fwd) Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3554 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.ptg.org/pipermail/caut/attachments/3b/c0/52/d4/attachment.bin From harvey@greenwood.net Sat Jul 25 03:53:00 1998 From: harvey@greenwood.net (harvey) Date: Fri Jul 24 20:53 MDT 1998 Subject: Letter to PTG Technical Editor (fwd) In-Reply-To: Steve/List, Although Tom has documented his case well, I'm going to play with the "sounds like" portion instead of assuming string/belly areas. Since this sound could be telegraphed from other areas, and be misunderconstrued for something else, let's explore... - sostenuto mounting, blade pivot bushings, and 'proximities' to other stuff; - lyre braces (nah -- too obvious); - lock assembly (if aftermarket kludge appended) - topboard long hinge pin (don't think so) - lid prop and related (especially when down) - trapwork underlevers, mounts and pinning - damper wire sockets; - bridge cutout around or below plate strut. - damper upstop rail - the 'bell' (there have been stories) Finally, although I've heard of this only once (and Paul Monroe found it), there was an incident where the shelf portion of a nose bolt failed to contact the bottom of a plate strut. Same general area (and phenomenon) as described here. In this case, the gap was so small, it could be called microscopic... just enough to cause a whisper buzz. These are off the cuff responses on reading the message. If I think of other things, I'll repost. -jh- [portions cut] >Although it sounds like a soundboard related noise, I have set the >strings on the bridges, experimented with the string/ capo d astro bar >relationship, tried muting duplex string segments, checked action parts >for loose joints and pinning, reshaped hammers, voiced, and listened >under the piano and inside it while it was being played. I have cleaned >underneath the plate, blown out the whole soundboard area with my vacuum, >and checked for obvious soundboard and rib problems, even for dried glue >remnants on the edges. I have always been able to find a remedy for >other Steinway treble problems, but not this one. Jim Harvey, RPT harvey@greenwood.net ________________________ Tuning is a means to an end -- Harvey (date unknown) From kswafford@earthlink.net Sat Jul 25 04:36:00 1998 From: kswafford@earthlink.net (Kent Swafford) Date: Fri Jul 24 21:36 MDT 1998 Subject: Letter to PTG Technical Editor (fwd) Newton Hunt wrote: >S. Brady wrote: > >> Dear list, >> Here's a letter I received recently from a technician seeking >> help on a Steinway noise. Any ideas? I was embarassed this past year to find similar noises being produced in a B as the result of loose bolts holding the removable plate strut. Boy, I thought I had checked those! >In order to eliminate duplex scaling as a source is to use some "Silly Putty" >on BOTH ends of the duplex scale, behind the bridge and at the capo' bar. > >Silly Putty will conform to the strings and mute them entirely. It will not >leave any residue nor effect the metal in any way. Newton, you are aware, aren't you, that one of the two main ingredients in Silly Putty is silicone oil? Kent Swafford From harvey@greenwood.net Sat Jul 25 05:04:00 1998 From: harvey@greenwood.net (harvey) Date: Fri Jul 24 22:04 MDT 1998 Subject: Letter to PTG Technical Editor (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199807250336.UAA25556@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Uh-oh Kent, that's one of Newt's 'buttons'. Is that why you did it? 8-} At 10:36 PM 7/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >Newton, you are aware, aren't you, that one of the two main ingredients >in Silly Putty is silicone oil? Jim Harvey, RPT harvey@greenwood.net From remoody@easnet.net Sat Jul 25 08:40:00 1998 From: remoody@easnet.net (Richard Moody) Date: Sat Jul 25 01:40 MDT 1998 Subject: fussy buzzes OK FOLKS I am putting my foot down, or I am putting my foot in it. My theory is that these "fuzzy buzzes" come from attempts at "leveling strings". All I ask to begin with is, "have the strings been leveled on this instrument" If the answer is "no" please reply. Richard W Moody (the W stands for Wily) ---------- > From: Ted Simmons > To: caut@ptg.org > Subject: Re: Letter to PTG Technical Editor (fwd) > Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 4:31 PM > > Talk about timing! I just returned from a Steinway tuning and had > warbles in the upper treble from the 5th octave to C7. Beyond that was > O.K. I guess you could call it a "fuzzy buzz". Anyhow, I too am > interested in any comments or suggestions toward explaining this > phenomenon. > > Ted Simmons > > > Steinway Grand "Fuzzy Buzz" > > > > I regularly service a Steinway B grand, approximately twenty years old. > > For many years it has had a problem with a number of notes in the mid > > treble. Despite my best attempts to locate the source, I have been > > unable to locate a faint, "fuzzy buzz" in this region 1-1/2 octaves > > above middle C. The instrument has spent its life in an "easy", > > moderate climate. > > > > Although it sounds like a soundboard related noise, I have set the > > strings on the bridges, experimented with the string/ capo d astro bar > > relationship, tried muting duplex string segments, checked action parts > > for loose joints and pinning, reshaped hammers, voiced, and listened > > under the piano and inside it while it was being played. I have cleaned > > underneath the plate, blown out the whole soundboard area with my vacuum, > > and checked for obvious soundboard and rib problems, even for dried glue > > remnants on the edges. I have always been able to find a remedy for > > other Steinway treble problems, but not this one. > > > > Has anyone out there had this experience and solved the problem? Are > > there any methods for "getting a fix" on the source of elusive soundboard > > noises? My customer is frustrated and so am I! Thanks for your help! > > > > -Tom Armstrong, RPT > > Monterey Bay Chapter, California > > _____________________________________________________________________ > > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From nhunt@jagat.com Sat Jul 25 13:13:00 1998 From: nhunt@jagat.com (Newton Hunt) Date: Sat Jul 25 06:13 MDT 1998 Subject: Letter to PTG Technical Editor (fwd) References: <199807250416.AAA28377@ais.ais-gwd.com> Looks like I stuck my foot in it again! Well, Kent and Jim, I remember playing with this stuff as a kid and feeling cheated because there was so little in the container. Thank the gods I don't use it on good pianos, just 7'ers and bigger. It is still a good tool. Can anyone substiat it's ingrediants and it's migration qualities? Have a good weekend all. Newton (walking on buns with two fiit in mouth) nhunt@jagat.com From nossaman@southwind.net Sat Jul 25 16:53:00 1998 From: nossaman@southwind.net (Ron Nossaman) Date: Sat Jul 25 09:53 MDT 1998 Subject: Letter to PTG Technical Editor (fwd) > >Newton, you are aware, aren't you, that one of the two main ingredients >in Silly Putty is silicone oil? > > >Kent Swafford > The other ingredient is an acid, I forget which (carbolic, possibly). Certainly two of the most piano friendly substances on the planet, evil grins notwithstanding. Ron From nossaman@southwind.net Sat Jul 25 16:53:00 1998 From: nossaman@southwind.net (Ron Nossaman) Date: Sat Jul 25 09:53 MDT 1998 Subject: Letter to PTG Technical Editor (fwd) At 08:05 AM 7/25/98 -0400, you wrote: >Looks like I stuck my foot in it again! > >Well, Kent and Jim, I remember playing with this stuff as a kid and >feeling cheated because there was so little in the container. > >Thank the gods I don't use it on good pianos, just 7'ers and bigger. > >It is still a good tool. Can anyone substiat it's ingrediants and it's >migration qualities? > >Have a good weekend all. > > Newton > (walking on buns with two fiit in mouth) > nhunt@jagat.com > > Check the archives. I posted the correct ingrediants (looked it up, but I've forgotten WHERE) to you and the list about a year ago. Ron From kswafford@earthlink.net Sat Jul 25 19:12:00 1998 From: kswafford@earthlink.net (Kent Swafford) Date: Sat Jul 25 12:12 MDT 1998 Subject: Letter to PTG Technical Editor (fwd) Newton Hunt wrote: >It is still a good tool. Can anyone substiat it's ingrediants and it's >migration qualities? > > Newton Silly Putty is said to be mainly boric acid and silicone oil. Kent From nhunt@jagat.com Sun Jul 26 05:10:00 1998 From: nhunt@jagat.com (Newton Hunt) Date: Sat Jul 25 22:10 MDT 1998 Subject: Letter to PTG Technical Editor (fwd) References: <199807251811.LAA10551@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Hard stuff to get back into it's egg. Ah, well, back to the drawing board. Newton nhunt@jagat.com From remoody@easnet.net Sun Jul 26 07:14:00 1998 From: remoody@easnet.net (Richard Moody) Date: Sun Jul 26 00:14 MDT 1998 Subject: Letter to PTG Technical Editor (fwd) ---------- > From: Kent Swafford > To: caut@ptg.org > Subject: Re: Letter to PTG Technical Editor (fwd) > Date: Saturday, July 25, 1998 1:11 PM > > Newton Hunt wrote: > > > >It is still a good tool. Can anyone substiat it's ingrediants and it's > >migration qualities? > > > > Newton > > Silly Putty is said to be mainly boric acid and silicone oil. > > Kent Now Newton has said he has observed no deleterious effects from silly putty on string sections. Perhaps we should take him at his word, and even consider silly putty might have a beneficial effect, despite the horrible sounding names of boric acid and silicone oil. It could be even that the silicone oil in silly putty is scant enough to only migrate to the friction points and stay there. Every one raves about Protec clp. Who is to say the lubricants in that don't migrate as much as silicone does. With any lubricant in a piano you have to be damn careful where and how much you put on. Regarding substances used to mute, how many of us have seen the residues of masking tape or duct tape on noisey string sections. Compared to these, silly putty could actually be beneficial.... I would say it leaves less behind than others, and if it leaves a trace amount of silicone, that might be benefical, in the friction points. as long as it stays there...... Richard Moody From McNeilTom@aol.com Sun Jul 26 07:19:00 1998 From: McNeilTom@aol.com (McNeilTom@aol.com) Date: Sun Jul 26 00:19 MDT 1998 Subject: Letter to PTG Technical Editor (fwd) Hi, Steve, and List - Here are two more shots in the dark: The single most difficult-to-solve fuzzy buzz I've ever encountered eluded several highly experienced technicians, including Yours Truly, for a couple years. We even worked in various team combinations, to no avail. Turned out to be a lump of hard glue on the shift iron guide dowel below the keybed. The shift iron would buzz against it, but only under certain conditions that were elusive to duplicate. Seems like we could have zeroed in on it earlier, but we could not. Another buzz (in a 'D', but it could happen in a 'B' just as well) came from the small hinges attaching the folding lip to the fallboard. This was easy to identify, and surely not the problem your correspondent encounters. But, for the sake of someone who might be helped by the info: If you remove these small hinges, you can un-pin them. A small hammer, an appropriately sized pin punch and a vise are all you need. With the pin removed, you can use the vise to pinch the barrels of the hinges very slightly to provide an interference fit on the pin. (Alternatively, you could install new pins a few thousandths of an inch larger in diameter, if you have the right diameter rod lying around the shop.) If the lip of the fallboard is loose enough to fall of its own weight, you might want to pursue this improvement, whether or not it's producing noise at the moment. From jminor@uiuc.edu Mon Jul 27 17:12:00 1998 From: jminor@uiuc.edu (John Minor) Date: Mon Jul 27 10:12 MDT 1998 Subject: String Buzz In-Reply-To: I found buzzing that was caused by a loose let-off rail dowel inside the brass rail at the treble end. To determine if this is the case just gently tap on the end of the dowel with a finger or knuckle at the treble bracket with the action out. Good luck. John Minor From hgreeley@leland.Stanford.EDU Mon Jul 27 20:19:00 1998 From: hgreeley@leland.Stanford.EDU (Horace Greeley) Date: Mon Jul 27 13:19 MDT 1998 Subject: Letter to PTG Technical Editor (fwd) In-Reply-To: Jim, At 06:43 PM 7/24/1998 -0600, you wrote: >I've noticed this problem on a few B's over the years, and the problem >was that the bell bolt wasn't snug enough. If there is a slight gap >between the bottom of the bolt head and the top of the plate, you will >get a fuzzy tone on a few mid-treble notes. I'm not suggesting that you >really crank this bolt down, usually 1/2 turn is enough. >Jim Krentzel It might also be that the bell bolt is too tight. Bear in mind that the function of the bell bolt is the _relatively minute_ adjustment of bearing, and play away. Cheers! Horace Horace Greeley, CNA, MCP, RPT Systems Analyst/Engineer Controller's Office Stanford University email: hgreeley@leland.stanford.edu voice mail: 650.725.9062 fax: 650.725.8014 From nhunt@jagat.com Mon Jul 27 21:27:00 1998 From: nhunt@jagat.com (Newton Hunt) Date: Mon Jul 27 14:27 MDT 1998 Subject: String Buzz References: John Minor wrote: > I found buzzing that was caused by a loose let-off rail dowel inside the > brass rail at the treble end. To determine if this is the case just gently > tap on the end of the dowel with a finger or knuckle at the treble bracket > with the action out. That rail has screws to hold it secure, whcih should be tightened, but that one is not one I have heard of before. Good one John. Newton nhunt@jagat.com From pianobuilders@olynet.com Wed Jul 29 04:37:00 1998 From: pianobuilders@olynet.com (Delwin D Fandrich) Date: Tue Jul 28 21:37 MDT 1998 Subject: Letter to PTG Technical Editor (fwd) References: <3.0.3.32.19980727121945.00e25a00@popserver4.stanford.edu> Horace Greeley wrote: > It might also be that the bell bolt is too tight. > > Bear in mind that the function of the bell bolt is the _relatively minute_ > adjustment of bearing . . . . ---------------------------------------------------------- Horace, I'm not sure I can agree with this statement. The bell and the accompanying coupling bolt provide a means of mass-coupling the plate hitch pin panel to the relatively massive wood rim assembly. In practice this mechanism helps to prevent the hitch pin panel from vibrating sympathetically with, and bleeding energy from, the strings. It raises the mechanical impedance of the plate assembly. The coupling bolt needs to be only tight enough to accomplish this coupling function. Not enough to appreciably affect string bearing. Regards, Del From hgreeley@leland.Stanford.EDU Wed Jul 29 15:44:00 1998 From: hgreeley@leland.Stanford.EDU (Horace Greeley) Date: Wed Jul 29 08:44 MDT 1998 Subject: Letter to PTG Technical Editor (fwd) In-Reply-To: <35BE9865.7C957291@olynet.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19980727121945.00e25a00@popserver4.stanford.edu> Del, I absolutely agree. That's why I said "relatively minute". Like so much else in this work, one thing may serve several purposes. I should note that common practice (in some circles) when installing a "CountryMan" pickup was the removal of both the bell bolt and the screwed down strut. I do not ever remember an instrument in which this made an appreciable difference in net tone. Also, I picked up this habit from an old S&S frog, as well as Keith Hardesty and Leonard Jared. Having used it as a process for some time now, I can relate no broken plates, and many, many "improved" instruments. On the other hand, as noted above, I completely concur with your structural analysis. Best! Horace At 08:35 PM 7/28/1998 -0700, you wrote: > > >Horace Greeley wrote: > >> It might also be that the bell bolt is too tight. >> >> Bear in mind that the function of the bell bolt is the _relatively minute_ >> adjustment of bearing . . . . > >---------------------------------------------------------- > >Horace, > >I'm not sure I can agree with this statement. The bell and the accompanying >coupling bolt provide a means of mass-coupling the plate hitch pin panel to the >relatively massive wood rim assembly. In practice this mechanism helps to >prevent the hitch pin panel from vibrating sympathetically with, and bleeding >energy from, the strings. It raises the mechanical impedance of the plate >assembly. > >The coupling bolt needs to be only tight enough to accomplish this coupling >function. Not enough to appreciably affect string bearing. > >Regards, > >Del > > > Horace Greeley, CNA, MCP, RPT Systems Analyst/Engineer Controller's Office Stanford University email: hgreeley@leland.stanford.edu voice mail: 650.725.9062 fax: 650.725.8014 From pianobuilders@olynet.com Wed Jul 29 16:35:00 1998 From: pianobuilders@olynet.com (Delwin D Fandrich) Date: Wed Jul 29 09:35 MDT 1998 Subject: Letter to PTG Technical Editor (fwd) References: <3.0.3.32.19980727121945.00e25a00@popserver4.stanford.edu> <3.0.3.32.19980729074311.00eb1df0@popserver4.stanford.edu> Horace Greeley wrote: > Del, > > I absolutely agree. > > That's why I said "relatively minute". Like so much else in this > work, one thing may serve several purposes. I should note that > common practice (in some circles) when installing a "CountryMan" > pickup was the removal of both the bell bolt and the screwed down > strut. I do not ever remember an instrument in which this made an > appreciable difference in net tone. > > Also, I picked up this habit from an old S&S frog, as well as Keith > Hardesty and Leonard Jared. Having used it as a process for > some time now, I can relate no broken plates, and many, many > "improved" instruments. > > On the other hand, as noted above, I completely concur with your > structural analysis. > > Best! > > Horace -------------------------------------------------------- Horace, Often there won't be much difference in tone either with or without the bell & bolt. Other times there will be significant difference in sustain -- there will be longer sustain with the b&b in place than there will be with it missing. I suspect -- though I've done no testing at all on this -- the difference comes from the particular arrangement used with the rear bearing bar, i.e., the length of the back scale. It is not a structural piece so there will be no damage to the plate if it is removed. There could be if the bolt were over tightened, I suppose, but you'd have to be really aggressive to get the bolt that tight. Regards, Del From CRANE@TWSUVM.UC.TWSU.EDU Wed Jul 29 17:39:00 1998 From: CRANE@TWSUVM.UC.TWSU.EDU (CRANE@TWSUVM.UC.TWSU.EDU) Date: Wed Jul 29 10:39 MDT 1998 Subject: position opening Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2980 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.ptg.org/pipermail/caut/attachments/e4/a0/ce/43/attachment.bin From remoody@easnet.net Thu Jul 30 09:55:00 1998 From: remoody@easnet.net (Richard Moody) Date: Thu Jul 30 02:55 MDT 1998 Subject: Bell bolts on Steinways Horace, Del, List I was fortunate know Leonard Jared enough to be able to visit his shop and remember some exhortations about screwing the bell bolt too tight without taking into consideration a whole bunch of circumstances. Lenoard was a great teacher, and would not set you up as one with a little knowledge that might be dangerous. Like a good teacher he knew what I knew, and didn't bother with stuff over my head. But boy did he have a way of bringing up your level of knowldege, as if narrowing the great abyss between what he knew and what you knew to a mere chasm. And if he were here to day and could be induced to post to caut, I am sure he would reply, "Well yes, Richard, but your chasm is the Grand Canyon." That would be typical Leonard, but what else can a great teacher say? So if anyone has anything more to say about the bell bolts on Steinways, like how should I inspect it the first time I see it on a new client's piano, or assuming I just came on as a caut, what should I look for, from piano to piano, (would that be from B to C to D ?) such advice would be greatly appreciated. Richard Moody ---------- > From: Horace Greeley > To: caut@ptg.org > Subject: Re: Letter to PTG Technical Editor (fwd) > Date: Wednesday, July 29, 1998 9:43 AM > > > > That's why I said "relatively minute". Like so much else in this > work, one thing may serve several purposes. I should note that > common practice (in some circles) when installing a "CountryMan" > pickup was the removal of both the bell bolt and the screwed down > strut. I do not ever remember an instrument in which this made an > appreciable difference in net tone. > > Also, I picked up this habit from an old S&S frog, as well as Keith > Hardesty and Leonard Jared. Having used it as a process for > some time now, I can relate no broken plates, and many, many > "improved" instruments. > Best! > > Horace > > > > > > > > >Horace Greeley wrote: > > > >> It might also be that the bell bolt is too tight. From atodd@UH.EDU Fri Jul 31 19:54:00 1998 From: atodd@UH.EDU (Avery Todd) Date: Fri Jul 31 12:54 MDT 1998 Subject: Potential e-mail Security Problem List, For those who may be interested, there is a new "potential" security problem with some e-mail programs. The entire post from 'Tourbus' that I have is 14K long, so I won't put it on the list unless there is a big demand. I'll be glad to send it privately, though, if you're interested. >Microsoft Outlook, Microsoft Outlook >Express, and Netscape Messenger all contain serious flaws that could >potentially damage your computer. > >Unless you use Microsoft Outlook, Microsoft Outlook Express, or Netscape >Messenger (also known as "Netscape Mail"), you do not have to worry about >the buffer overflow problem. It does *NOT* affect you or your email program. Avery mailto:atodd@uh.edu